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4 years ago  ::  Jul 17, 2009 - 11:26PM #1
xi_omega
Date Joined: Nov 27, 2008
Posts: 181
The prerelease is over and the release is almost done and I kind of have a moral problem...

I went to 1 prerelease and 1 release (so far) and notice something weird: The TO/HJ is ALWAYS playing with us. I asked around and found out that this is not a rare occurence as they are also playing in their own FNM.

I don't really mind them playing (okay, I'm a bit jealous too!) but I think it's not right for them to take part in the prize distribution as well if they win. My problem is more that their are fellow TOs and I'm quite friendly with them. I've tried to tell them they shouldn't but they did a pretty good job at ignoring me (one of them told me he wasn't the "official" TO and thus could play but the one sanctioning the event wasn't there...).

Can anyone advise me on what I should do? It's silly but I'm very reluctant to "rat them out" and I'm not even sure it will do anything.... will a WotC guy come all the way to Berne to see if it is true? Naaa...
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2009 - 1:00PM #2
thebiff11482
Date Joined: May 20, 2007
Posts: 25
This is a MEGA no no, UNLESS the event is not sanctioned. That is the only exception.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2009 - 1:17PM #3
xi_omega
Date Joined: Nov 27, 2008
Posts: 181
I know.

I'm not asking if it's okay. I know it's not!
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2009 - 2:08PM #4
Cali159
Date Joined: Nov 12, 2008
Posts: 155
definitely a no no report them to Wizards, I may seem harsh but rules are there for a reason.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2009 - 2:25PM #5
BillBo
Date Joined: Nov 9, 2006
Posts: 1,412

I went to 1 prerelease and 1 release (so far) and notice something weird: The TO/HJ is ALWAYS playing with us. I asked around and found out that this is not a rare occurence as they are also playing in their own FNM.


xi_omega:

My first step would be "education." Inform your fellow-TO/HJs about applicable rules and policies and try to make them understand why they are in place and why it's worthwhile to abide by them. After all, these rules and policies are there for a reason ;-). I also feel that talking with each other has the advantage of not splitting the community but of keeping it together.

If they resist your efforts at education, then step two depends on whether the TO/HJ is a certified judge or not. If certified, I'd notify the country coordinator about the misdemeanor; if not certified, then reporting to the DCI seems advisable.

Let me add a personal remark, totally private and unofficial. I'm all for clean play and sticking to rules and policies, no doubt about it. Don't let us become rule-Nazi's, though. If some TO/HJs play in their own events but draw many players, well, then the service they provide can't be that bad that we'd wish to tar and feather them for not doing what we do.

Edit. I'd like to congratulate xi_omega (who started this thread) on becoming a L1 judge. It saddens me, though, for I loved his sig "neither judge nor rules advisor;" it had this anarchistic flavor ...

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2009 - 11:32PM #6
xi_omega
Date Joined: Nov 27, 2008
Posts: 181
@BillBo: thanks! I liked the sig myself Guess I'll have to change it to something else now....

The situation is a little more complicated... Here are a few facts:

Case one:
- They get the biggest crowd / do PTQ / Help host the Nationals
- One is the TO but doesn't come to his events. Two of his coworkers come in rotation... They play in the events (and sometime gets first prize).
- None of them is certified
- I've talked to one of them and pointed out that what they are doing is not right... but without result

Case Two:
- They started a few month before me They are a small shop specializing in Warhammer but doing MtG now too.
- The TO plays in his events and also get prizes
- He is not certified
- I haven't talked to them about it at all.

I'm not sure what to do as I'm working with both teams in trying to offer the community a nice MtG environment... As I'm the "newest" TO in the city, I don't feel like I have the right to report them for something everyone seem to take for granted (in the community at least).
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2009 - 12:29AM #7
counsellour
Date Joined: Sep 7, 2006
Posts: 130
It seems to me that this issue is a bit more complicated. If these individuals were actually the organizers of record or judges of record for an event, DCI Reporter would not allow them to play and have the event upload.

Therefore, one of two things may be happening. If they are playing under different DCI numbers than the ones they use to sanction or judge, then they are guilty of fraud and are obviously aware that they are breaking the rules and ought to be reported and punished to the fullest extent that the DCI is able.

However, I suspect that the actual problem is more commonplace. While these players may be organizers in the sense of their actual work in putting together the events, they may well not be the organizers of record. If this is the case, then there is not any technical violation. It is not uncommon for some absentee organizer to be the TO of record for events that are then run by others. What is most unfortunate in such situations is that the selfish motivation of these players generally are much greater than their ethics. They do not care that they are stealing from their player base by participating themselves. This same selfishness also causes them to not care that even if they are not winning prizes (not likely given their lack of character) the appearance of inappropriate behaviour and simply the taking of wins and rating points from actually legitimate players is enough to warrant not playing.

Most unfortunately, such behaviour is generally very difficult to police since the world is so filled with evil people and it is nigh impossible without the use of force to cause them to cease in their taking advantage of others.

James Do Hung LEE.
James Do Hung LEE.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2009 - 9:12PM #8
CrazyMike
Date Joined: Jul 11, 2008
Posts: 68
The rules are definitely clear. This is not supposed to happen. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I bet it happens all over the world. This is a situation that DCI created.

I've said this before in another thread. I live in a small town. I'm the only TO and have worked hard to bring the magic community together. We've gone from a gaggle of people who show up randomly, to a core level community where people love the FnM support and the Pre-release/Release tournaments. This last Pre-release we had a waiting list. Now every Friday night (which always was our play night) has to be sanctioned FnM. The players demand it.

How am I thanked for my hard work? DCI prevents me from ever playing organized magic again.

Yes I get thanks and appreciation from the community. I also enjoy the organizer role. The problem is I really like playing Magic. Sure I can convince someone else to become the TO, but the core level events are tied to ME. The best I can hope for in the future is to get to play in a release tournament every three months?

I totally understand why people do this.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 24, 2009 - 12:13PM #9
aleksandr
Date Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 153

counsellour wrote:

However, I suspect that the actual problem is more commonplace. While these players may be organizers in the sense of their actual work in putting together the events, they may well not be the organizers of record. If this is the case, then there is not any technical violation.


What are the actual rules and regulations with regard to absentee TOs?

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 24, 2009 - 1:14PM #10
xi_omega
Date Joined: Nov 27, 2008
Posts: 181
Actually, I think the regulations don't really states explicitely that the TO must be present at the event he organised.

However, It IS required to have a Head Judge for any DCI rated Tournament:

Sanctioned tournaments require the physical presence of a Head Judge during play to adjudicate disputes, interpret rules, and make other official decisions


In most 8K tournaments, the TO is also the Head Judge. If the TO is not present at a tournament, he has to elect a Head Judge. The Head Judge is a tournament official and cannot take part in the tourmanent itself.

Right now, we are talking about TOs fullfilling one or both roles but playing in the tournament or TOs not being there but not defining an official Head Judge.

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