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Switch to Forum Live View Free Action vs. Reaction
1 year ago  ::  May 24, 2012 - 11:03AM #1
Nezalhualixtlan
Date Joined: Jul 14, 2004
Posts: 119
I've been reading through various rules lately.  One thing I've been pondering is how to treat free actions vs Reactions, specifically can a free action be executed between a triggering event and the reaction to it.  I don't see anything on this one way or the other.  And combing through the forums it seems to somewhat of an unresolved question.

This stems from thinking through a character concept that is based slightly around precognition, and speed both reaction and distance.  I think from other threads the general consensus was that a free action like Single Weapon Flourish 1 out of the Melee Duelist prestige class can actually be executed even between weapon swings during a full attack.  It got me to wondering, if you are trained in Quick Draw, have a Quick Draw templated Lightsaber so that now drawing / igniting the lightsaber is a free action once a turn, if you have the weapon holstered and off and someone fires a blaster at you can you ignite the weapon as a free action before executing the triggered reaction of the Deflect talent assuming you meet all the other prereqs for using Deflect on the attack?

It seems the game has an almost maddening lack of order of execution precedence, though coming from other game systems I'm used to FILO stack-like push/pop precedence, and gravitate towards using that assuming the actions trying to be executed match their prereqs for use.  Which would mean reactions and free actions would have the same precedence, and either could be used to interrupt the other, only that a reaction would require a specific trigger which a separate free action could be, whereas free actions could be used after a reaction is declared and execute before it and would be more up to the character in terms of when it would happen.

I don't know though.  And that could lead to some wacky scenarios.

Am I missing any explicit rules on this?  Or what do you guys think?  I'm open to opinions on all sides still trying to think this through fully.
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1 year ago  ::  May 24, 2012 - 12:45PM #2
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,343
I'm going to say NO when you ask to draw your lightsaber as a free action so you can then react with Deflect.  I'm saying no because free action can NOT interupt the actions of others which is exactly what you are doing.  In essence you are reacting twice to the same even which is also not something that can normally be done.

The Order of Opperations when it comes to free actions is going to be up to the GM but I strongly encourage him/her not to allow them to interrupt another's action unless the action being taken specifically allows it.  Among other things I will not allow a trained Acrobat to "Drop Prone" as a free action when that is being used as a Reaction to getting shot at.  To put it another way free actions should not be used as reactions; they may be related but they are not the same thing such that you can turn a free action into a reaction.
 
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1 year ago  ::  May 24, 2012 - 1:48PM #3
sienn_sconn
Date Joined: Jun 2, 2010
Posts: 1,335

May 24, 2012 -- 12:45PM, StevenO wrote:


The Order of Opperations when it comes to free actions is going to be up to the GM but I strongly encourage him/her not to allow them to interrupt another's action unless the action being taken specifically allows it. 
 




Seconded.

Also, my personal opinion is that free actions occur on the triggering player's turn unless otherwise stated. 

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1 year ago  ::  May 24, 2012 - 4:31PM #4
Nezalhualixtlan
Date Joined: Jul 14, 2004
Posts: 119
And I think those are perfectly viable interpretations of the rules.

I can certainly see that making sense.  Reactions are described as 'instantaneous', and could legitimately be intended to be the only things that are able to interrupt other actions, and that could be one of those 'reasonable limits' a GM puts on free actions.

I could see it going the other way too though, and free actions are described as taking 'almost no time'to do they can be done at any time even during other peoples turns, and multiple of them at that.  So I can see both.

Either way there is still an issue with order of precedence, even if you go with the restrictive interpretation (and I'm not surprised that's your take Steve given everything else I've read from you, and I can respect where you are coming from), but even then you could have mutiple reactions interrupting other reactions say one trigger and multiple characters reacting to it and a whole chain of events to resolve   I'd say you'd still eed to FILO those, otherwise it gets messy.

Granted letting free actions be freely chosen in between another persons attempt to take an action and the resolution of the action the similar to reactions would complicate things even further.
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1 year ago  ::  May 24, 2012 - 5:39PM #5
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,343
Maybe I've been here too long if I'm getting that predictable in my answers.  Perhaps its time to say so long like many other "regular" contributers (granted I haven't added that much) have done since the last books were published two years ago.

I don't know how familiar you are with MtG's terms (I stopped playing that several years ago as well) but I'd generally see free actions as instants but as ones that can only be played on an empty stack during other people's turns.

If you could whip out a lightsaber to potentially use with Block as a free action then you'd better not complain when I allow the guy who was originally going to shoot you to decide to target someone else instead or maybe even do something completely different.  I know this topic came up before for precisely that "free action draw into Block/Deflect" question before.
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1 year ago  ::  May 24, 2012 - 7:02PM #6
Nezalhualixtlan
Date Joined: Jul 14, 2004
Posts: 119
Oh, I apologize if I've said something wrong, I certainly meant no offense.  It's just I've been either lurking around here for a while, or posting more recently since I've been playing and getting in to thinking through thing I might do if/when I take over as GM, that I've been delving into the rules more and have been contemplating the exact way things either work or are supposed to work.  That's brought my across a large number of your posts as I sift through old threads on various topics, which do typically tend to argue for more restrictive interpretations of the rules, but your opinions are also typically fair and generally well thought out, and usually presented without getting into personal arguements as I've seen *some* other 'regular' posters.  So even when I've not necessarily agreed with your opinions, I tend to respect what you have to say.

Yeah, I'm still contemplating this one, though, I think you might be right.   I tend to like to think through most of the downstream consequences of things to think about the balance issues things could bring up.  And, I've said it before, but my own style tends to be more permissive by RAW, I don't tend to be bothered by combinations of things geting even very powerful if I'm GM because I just figure its on me to bring the challenge level up then.  I'm also very familiar with at least older Editions of MtG, I used to play extensively starting back in '93 starting with Arabian Nights, and was pretty much an addict up to '98 I think with the release of Exodus was the last major Xpack I collected.  And that was actually kind of what I was envisioning with the stack order, with things like Instants and Interrupts potentially being a valid model for free actions and reactions, which would lend toward your interpretation.

But the original thought was just going back to some of the video game versions of Jedi, through things like KotOR or TFU (which I'd be willing to bet at least on the 2nd you probably think is ridiculous.  The TFU video game admittedly was pretty crazy in terms of what they had the character doing).  But you do see Jedi with unignited lightsabers anticipate an incoming attack, light the saber, and deflect the shot before getting hit.

I was just trying to ponder through how that might functionally work in the RPG in Saga.

Though, in truth, if a character like this was built with that kind of weapon, the situation would probably rarely come up.  If he can draw and ignite the saber as a free action, he'd certainly be able to do so if not surprised before any shots called at him occured.  And if he was surprised then it wouldn't matter anyway because Deflect is explicit that you need to be aware of the attack and not flat footed.  So I'm a little hard pressed to think of a time it might even come up.  I guess perhaps a stand off situation where maybe the Jedi is trying to diplomatically resolves the conflict and doesn't want to draw his saber and incite a physical conflict, but he fails and then maybe the opponent cracks and fires at him anyway... or something to that effect.


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1 year ago  ::  May 24, 2012 - 9:42PM #7
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,343
You didn't say anything wrong although some said things about my generally conservative views on things.  I've always strived for consistency and generally fought against the massive power creep that sometimes happens.  I think things are best overall if someone who is only using the SECR for reference can still have a character that is as good as someone with access to all the books.  I've also stated it before but there are a number of things in KotOR that I'm not too happy with because of the power increase they present.  While I can see why templates are good and even useful I'm afraid some of them can be abused and I also don't like players building characters around them.

I favor a slightly more conservative game for the simple reason that will be easier to bring under control should things start happening that shouldn't.  Excessive power means it takes that much more to rein it in which can start a feeding cycle that overloads the game.  I'm a stickler on stats but higher stats make character stronger so to counter that either the opposition all needs better stats (which means a lot more work) or you use high level challenges.  Of course those higher level challenges mean more XP which lets the characters level faster which makes them stronger and perpetuates the cycle.

When it comes to the StarWars video games I never played KotOR (my computer at the time was too old) and haven't tried tFU but from what I've seen of that game, and especially its sequel, it is way too over the top.  I actually think that is a problem with a lot of the video games these days.  When it comes to MtG the last set I any purchased in any number was from the time spiral block.

Now if a character can draw a weapon as a free action I'm not opposed to letting him do it outside of his turn.  It's just that he should expect to do it quickly enough to react to someone elses action after that action has begun.  That Jedi who is trying to resolve things "diplomatically" without drawing his lightsaber (although this could be getting measured in combat rounds) may not be able to draw is lightsaber before things go south but he could before everyone else gets to act; one guy could take a crack at him but after that he could certainly draw and be ready to respond to anyone else who may want to act.
   
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1 year ago  ::  May 25, 2012 - 5:01PM #8
MERC_1
Date Joined: Feb 13, 2008
Posts: 1,302
Being able to draw your weapon as a free action is pretty awesome! That being said, I don't think you can use a free action as a reaction. What's special with reactions are that usually you have a limited number of reactions to choose from. If you let free actions accompany any reaction that may open up too many possibilities. Like dropping prone any time you are being shot at.

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1 year ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 1:00AM #9
4lCH3M157
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 1,257
I personally say yes, of course, and that although others might disagree, the book makes it pretty clear you can.

Pg 144 SECR states, "Free actions consume almost no time or effort, and you may take one or more free actions even when it isn't your turn. Examples include calling out to your friends for help and taunting a foe. The GM puts reasonable limits on what counts as a free action."

Now SECR clearly puts limits on how many reactions may be performed in reponse to an action, one, however, does not put limits on free actions. Just as an acrobat may drop prone in reaction to being shot at, a free action, it is in my oppinion that someone, with the ability to do so, may draw as a free action and then react as a reaction. May sound wacky but with something that takes such investment and really only helps once and only if aware (not flat-footed) I see no reason to say no.
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1 year ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 6:39AM #10
Leo_the_Rat
Date Joined: Oct 10, 2007
Posts: 2,144
Page 144 of the Core Rule book says that the GM can put reasonable limits as to what constitutes a free action.  Since the GM is the final arbiter of what is and is not permissible in the game I wouldn't find it unreasonable to say that in some situations even things that are defined as free actions would not be allowed.  For example yelling for help is a free action but a GM would be right to say that the character can't do that while unconscious.  All that a free action means is that it doesn't take up a meaningful amount of time not that it is available to use at any time one sees fit.
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