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1 year ago ::
May 02, 2012 - 12:04AM
#1
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the Adaptable Talent feat from GoI is pretty nice. at first I thought it was prone to abuse, but now I see it's not. I find it very useful for item creation talents; it makes perfect sense to swap your Dark Scourge for the Sith Alchemy of this feat as you expect to be working in a lab and not fighting Jedi for the day. I think it plays well with the Wealth talent as well; though I wouldn't allow a player to choose Wealth as the talent for this feat since I would argue that to gain its credit benefit, you need to have the talent at the moment you gain a level, and this is an etheric moment outside gameplay (so no time to rest 6 hours), however, it's nice to have a utility talent filling the position of your Wealth talent during adventures.
however, my inquieries go much farther than this.
and here's why: I'm inclined to believe, by the wording of the rules, that you cannot choose a Force talent for the talent of this feat (not unless you have levels in any the Force disciple, Jedi Master, or Sith Lord prestige classess, see below).
that's because Adaptable talent says you ''choose one talent that you meet the prerequisites for, from a class you possess.'' while the Force Sensitivity feat says ''whenever you gain a new talent, you have the option of selecting a Force talent instead.'' chapter VI: the Force on the SECR says ''any time a character with the Force Sensitivity feat would normally gain a talent (such as from gaining an odd-numbered level in a heroic class), he or she may instead select a Force talent (...)''. so, Adaptable Talent does not make you gain a talent, instead it's a feat, and you pick its talent just as you pick a weapon group for Weapon Focus. the parenthesis Force Talents in the SECR seems to imply you could gain talents in other ways but it doesn't really make a point for rules discussion. however, if you had a level in any of the aforementioned prestige classes (the third-tier Force classes) you could reasonably be able to select any Force talent as the class description specifies that the talents you get to choose from within that class include ''any Force talent tree (...)''.
on the flip side, if one could argue that you most definitely 'gain' the talent you chose from this feat at the moment you have swapped it with one of your current ones, and therefore be eligible to 'instead select a Force talent' at the time you 'would normally gain a talent', then you could reasonably be able to select just any talent and then choose any Force talent which you meet the prerequisites to use instead of the talent you selected for the feat... as Viceroy Gunray would put it: That is an Outrage!! and on a sidenote, even though Force Sensitivity gives you Use the Force as a class skill and access to Force talent, that doesn't mean Force talents are class talents (you'll never see a Force talent that works with 'your class level'). another sidenote is that the Stolen Form talent says that you gain the benefit of the talent and are considered to have it in regards to prerequisites, but it's clear in its distintion that you do not 'gain' the talent
So finally, please regard any input and tell me wether you think otherwise or if you support my claim, or if you don't use this feat in your games at all. all your input is greatly appreciated!!!
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1 year ago ::
May 02, 2012 - 12:36AM
#2
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I've stated my opinions on Adaptable Talent before but in case you don't want to go looking:
1. The "talent" you choose with this feat is basically any one talent you could have taken at some point in your character progression. You need to meet the prereqs for it but the "from a class you possess" just means you can pick the talent from any talent trees you've had access to. If you are Force Sensitive this will also mean all of those Force talents; Force Tradition talents would/should be just as restrictive as they normally would be to a Force Sensitive character meaning you need GM permission.
2. When it comes to the talent you pull to use this feat I also include any used as prereqs for other things (such as PrCs) as non-selectable unless the new talent also fills the prereq. This means that you couldn't swap out an Awareness talent for one from some other talent tree when you need that Awareness talent to qualify for your Bounty Hunter PrC.
3. I will NOT permit Wealth, and maybe a few other talents, to get touched by this feat. Maybe you'd be FORCED to level up in less than 12 hours but otherwise I see it as you gain enough XP to level (this is NOT the same thing as levelling) then you can swap in Wealth (or make sure it's back in if you took it out) after which you level up, collect your Wealth gains, and then swap Wealth back out. It basically would give you all the access to the Wealth talent in the form of a feat.
4. Now the talent you swap in is the one the character "has" while the one that is taken out is "lost" while removed. While it is "in" the talent from the feat could be used as a prereq but then I see two options after that; the first is that you can no longer swap talents because it is being used as a prereq and the second is that you lose access to EVERYTHING that talent grants access to if it is removed.
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1 year ago ::
May 02, 2012 - 4:37AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2007
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StevenO has pretty much summed up my opinion as well.
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1 year ago ::
May 02, 2012 - 11:36PM
#4
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thankyou, gentlemen! just as StevenO put it, ''from a class you possess'' simply means a talent that would be normally available to you. I look forward on using this feat in conjunction with the Visions Force talent and others such as Imbue Item, Infuse Weapon and Planetary Attunement.
now what I'm really interested in is: which other talents would you not allow to be taken with this feat? (besides Wealth which I wouldn't allow either).
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1 year ago ::
May 03, 2012 - 10:39PM
#5
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I’d say anything that has a persistent effect across encounters is questionable for adaptable talent. Like attract minion. I don’t think that attract minion, wealth, and the like are completely out of the questions, but I’d want both a good explanation from the player and dramatic circumstances that call for the talent. And I would certainly not the character adapting to and from attract minion every session. One option for wealth in particular might be to have the character stick with the wealth talent and be unable to adapt it for a period of time, like until the character levels again or something.
Rule one isn’t “The DM is always right.” Rule one is: Everyone should be having fun at the table.
Plans for 5e: Kill the d20, and replace it with a bell curve for task resolution.
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1 year ago ::
May 04, 2012 - 11:45PM
#6
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thanks, BvBPL! that's a good point, I hadn't thought about the Attract Minion, Attract Superior Minion, and Wealth of Allies talents (or any other crime lord talent for that matter). I think it could work to swap OUT the Attract Minion (unless of course, you have one of the other two talents which have this one as a prerequisite, in which case you could swap out the more advanced one) in favor of a utility talent provided by this feat. In that case, however, the minion could be assumed to be taking a vacation, as he wouldn't be available for gameplay or even for out-of-scene errands as long as the character loses the talent that provides him, but after another 6 hours of rest he or she could be made available again.
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1 year ago ::
May 05, 2012 - 12:02PM
#7
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I'd probably forbid this feat's use (either as a selection or for the replacement) for just about everything that you can "use once per level or even less and then forget about," unless you're going to give up the benefits you gained with the talent. This would mean that Wealth is actually fine IF you (and the party) lose the benefits/equipment that you gained with those credits. In a similiar fashion any of the Imbue X type talents that let you power something which only you can use would need to lose those properties if you "lose" the talent that granted them. Attract Minion may not be so bad because when you have the talent you can "have" the minion but if you don't have the talent active then the minion is no where to be found and NOT doing anything of value on your behalf.
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