I was recently reviewing errata and faqs for Equilibrium, the Force Talent that allows you to spend a Force Point as a Swift Action and clear your condition track. I saw the clarification that it not only clears the track but also the causing condition, say like a poison. (Typing from my phone I'll grab links and citation when I can get to my computer).
Then last night as I was reviewing the Endurance skill, I realized it looked like almost everything the skill does for you is bonuses to avoid taking permanent conditions, from things like exhaustion, hunger, thirst, etc. Now if you are Force Sensitive you can train in Use the Force and have some overlap in things like holding your breath or force trancing to avoid dying of thirst or hunger as quickly as normal.
But it appears to me, with one caveat that permanent conditions are debilitating conditions (which I think the rules are pretty clear on though I know there is some disagreement) that Equilibrium could be used to clear any of the conditions imposed by failing an endurance check, making the skill obsolete for anyone with the talent and Force points to spend.
Granted Force Points are usually limited, but not always Channel Vitality, the Force Adept talent that let's you spend a Swift action to drop -1 on the condition track to generate a temp Force point, could be used to fuel Equilibrium.
If you had both, and remained conscious to use them, could you effective subsist on the Force alone without need for food or water, or potentially even rest or breathing if you concentrate on it? I'm thinking someone trapped on a derelict spacecraft, no sustenance, not taking damage they need to naturally heal, but no way off or escape pods so they just need to wait until someone finds them...
I was recently reviewing errata and faqs for Equilibrium, the Force Talent that allows you to spend a Force Point as a Swift Action and clear your condition track. I saw the clarification that it not only clears the track but also the causing condition, say like a poison. (Typing from my phone I'll grab links and citation when I can get to my computer). Then last night as I was reviewing the Endurance skill, I realized it looked like almost everything the skill does for you is bonuses to avoid taking permanent conditions, from things like exhaustion, hunger, thirst, etc. Now if you are Force Sensitive you can train in Use the Force and have some overlap in things like holding your breath or force trancing to avoid dying of thirst or hunger as quickly as normal. But it appears to me, with one caveat that permanent conditions are debilitating conditions (which I think the rules are pretty clear on though I know there is some disagreement) that Equilibrium could be used to clear any of the conditions imposed by failing an endurance check, making the skill obsolete for anyone with the talent and Force points to spend. Granted Force Points are usually limited, but not always Channel Vitality, the Force Adept talent that let's you spend a Swift action to drop -1 on the condition track to generate a temp Force point, could be used to fuel Equilibrium. If you had both, and remained conscious to use them, could you effective subsist on the Force alone without need for food or water, or potentially even rest or breathing if you concentrate on it? I'm thinking someone trapped on a derelict spacecraft, no sustenance, not taking damage they need to naturally heal, but no way off or escape pods so they just need to wait until someone finds them...
Are sleep a debilitating condition? No, but the CT drop from not sleeping is a debilitating condition. So, I would still have you roll to stay awake, and sooner or later you'll fail... Then you'll use up a lot of that presious oxygen. Sooner or later you will run out, and when you fall asleep next time, you'r toast!
I was recently reviewing errata and faqs for Equilibrium, the Force Talent that allows you to spend a Force Point as a Swift Action and clear your condition track. I saw the clarification that it not only clears the track but also the causing condition, say like a poison. (Typing from my phone I'll grab links and citation when I can get to my computer).
Then last night as I was reviewing the Endurance skill, I realized it looked like almost everything the skill does for you is bonuses to avoid taking permanent conditions, from things like exhaustion, hunger, thirst, etc. Now if you are Force Sensitive you can train in Use the Force and have some overlap in things like holding your breath or force trancing to avoid dying of thirst or hunger as quickly as normal.
But it appears to me, with one caveat that permanent conditions are debilitating conditions (which I think the rules are pretty clear on though I know there is some disagreement) that Equilibrium could be used to clear any of the conditions imposed by failing an endurance check, making the skill obsolete for anyone with the talent and Force points to spend.
Granted Force Points are usually limited, but not always Channel Vitality, the Force Adept talent that let's you spend a Swift action to drop -1 on the condition track to generate a temp Force point, could be used to fuel Equilibrium.
If you had both, and remained conscious to use them, could you effective subsist on the Force alone without need for food or water, or potentially even rest or breathing if you concentrate on it? I'm thinking someone trapped on a derelict spacecraft, no sustenance, not taking damage they need to naturally heal, but no way off or escape pods so they just need to wait until someone finds them...
Yes I see your point. It’s a situation that could lead to in-game abuse. If this was turning into nonsense, then the GM would have to make a call.
However, it’s also interesting that masters of the Force can perhaps wait for a long time in a near-coma like state, relying on the Force to keep them alive. It’s an interesting plot device that could be used to make a good story.
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As far as I'm concerned Equilibrium will just move you back to the top of the CT but it will NOT remove the Persistent Condition. I'll caution you to take any "clarification" with a grain of salt because how one person interprets something, even if it is the original writer, may not be how someone else interprets the rule.
Are sleep a debilitating condition? No, but the CT drop from not sleeping is a debilitating condition. So, I would still have you roll to stay awake, and sooner or later you'll fail... Then you'll use up a lot of that presious oxygen. Sooner or later you will run out, and when you fall asleep next time, you'r toast!
The rest I was speaking about was with regards to the Endurance checks. So far as I know there is no predefined requirement for anyone to actually sleep in the game, which is weird granted, but mechanically sleeping or getting 8 hrs rest (or force trancing) just lets you heal naturally. I actually don't even think there is a -1 CT due to not sleeping for prolonged periods of time, though having lived through some fairly bad bouts of insomnia I could see good reason to do so. Anyway, I was mostly talking about rest with regards to forced marching, running, sleeping in armor, or extended swimming as defined in Endurance.
But the bigger issue as you point out is breathing. You can go days without food before running into Endurance checks for hunger, hours without water for thirst. But breathing has to happen in a number of rounds, double if you use the Breath Control Use the Force aspect, but still a number of rounds. After that you start making Endurance checks each round. So if you are out of oxygen, given you'd need to take a use of Channel Vitality and Equilibrium, you'd need to focus on little else but not dying from asphyxiation through the Force. As long as you didn't accumulate all -5 CT at once though, you'd not fall unconcious, and since breath, hunger, and thirst all happen on different time lines you should be able to just barely maintain yourself, so long as you aren't up against anythings else like extreme temperatures or radiation that would wind up killing you, or possibly dropping you unconcious just through damage.
As richterbelmont says below, you'd basically just be keeping yourself in a concious coma-like state just to survive, but it should be possible if you throw all your attention to it. What that would do to a persons sanity might be another issue, but I don't know there are defined rules for that. But if you were on ship say that's minimal life support systems were still running, and all you were was out of food and drink, it'd be a lot easier to manage.
Yes I see your point. It’s a situation that could lead to in-game abuse. If this was turning into nonsense, then the GM would have to make a call.
However, it’s also interesting that masters of the Force can perhaps wait for a long time in a near-coma like state, relying on the Force to keep them alive. It’s an interesting plot device that could be used to make a good story.
This is what I was thinking. As far as a plot device a group could come upon a old derelict craft that's been adrift for years where some powerful enough force user was just barely maintaining themselves either waiting for rescue or to attack (light/dark side depending) when someone shows up and unwittingly offers them a route to freedom. Unless you felt their presence in the Force, you wouldn't be expecting to find anyone alive on a ship devoid of a breathable atmosphere for years.
As far as I'm concerned Equilibrium will just move you back to the top of the CT but it will NOT remove the Persistent Condition. I'll caution you to take any "clarification" with a grain of salt because how one person interprets something, even if it is the original writer, may not be how someone else interprets the rule.
StevenO, you were actually the "disagreement" I was referring to in my first post with regards to this, I've read your posts in other threads on it.
I happen to disagree with your assessment at least with regards to this. I think, under the Conditions section, it defines debilitiating conditions, and debilitating conditions can either be non-persistent or persistent. Under persistent conditions, you can not use the defined "Recover" action, or use the defined "natural healing" rules, but it does specifically state that youc an move up the condition track "by means other than the recover action or resting for 8 hours" which logically Equilibrium fits as it relates to natural english. Since Equilibrium "removes all debilitating conditions and returns you to a normal state."...
Q12: Does the Equilibrium talent reset your condition track to the top? Or does it just remove poisons, diseases, and other effects so that you can begin recovering/healing normally?
A: It does both.
I'm comfortable with it removing persistent conditions, I think RAW mostly supports that and it looks like RAI as well. However, I can see why you might house rule it otherwise, I certainly see the logic in why you would do so.
As far as I'm concerned Equilibrium will just move you back to the top of the CT but it will NOT remove the Persistent Condition. I'll caution you to take any "clarification" with a grain of salt because how one person interprets something, even if it is the original writer, may not be how someone else interprets the rule.
Equilibrium definitely removes persistent conditions. From Jedi Counseling 114: (devs direct answers to questions)
“Q: Does the Equilibrium talent move you to the top of the condition track, or does it remove persistent conditions (such as from poison, disease, or serious injury)?
A: Equilibrium does both of these, removing all persistent conditions and moving you to the top of the condition track.”
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Interesting how people are pointing this out just as I had been over my own self-debate in regards to Equilibrium—specifically when used against the persistent (and non-persistent) conditions imposed by the Endurance skill. now I'm actually only more concerned with using this talent to offset the persistent conditions imposed by failing at the Ignore Hunger and Ignore Thirst applications of the skill, and here's how I take it; you go without food for a number of days equal to your Constitution bonus, then after that you get to make a DC 10 check. If you fail this, you move -1 persistent step, and the following day you need to check again against DC 12 or move down another step. If in addition to this you are deprived of water (which becomes a problem faster than how food does) you'll be stacking another check and further step down the condition track. this is where it becomes important to have a high Endurance check modifier even when you have the Equilibrium talent (and where Force Harmony and the Force Point Recovery technique become useful). As Force Points are a finite resource, you use your Equilibrium as sparingly as possible, trying to pass as many Endurance checks and to wait until at least the second step down before burning a Point (though hunger and thirst stack, a single use of Equilibrium clears both conditions). Now, the condition is removed and you are at a normal state, but you're still starving—the DC for your Endurance check still increases by 2 on the following day, and you still need to check or move -1 step. If you have but a finite number of Force Points you'll be able to last longer than a non-Forceful would... but if you have a way to replenish Force Points or use temporary ones to activate Equilibrium at the right moment, and if the GM is lenient enough to let you go with it (he's the one who defines the term of an 'encounter' or if the starvation itself is part of a challenge or adventure), then you may truly subsist on the Force for survival.
Saga Edition RPG resource documents & reference tools: Compiled files of all resource documents & reference tools - NPCs, character sheets, Dawn of Defiance, Force and lightsaber form power cards, Jedi Counseling articles, NPC statblocks, Saga Index to all feats, talents, species, weapons, etc, Star Wars articles and web enhancements
"It is said that the Dragon Warrior would be able to survive on nothing but the dew of the universe."
-Tigress to Po (Kung Fu Panda)
Yaddle, 'the one below', survived decades of isolation and Relied on the force for survival. In wookiepedia it mentions how she survived a century of imprisonment with little or possibly no sustenance and became one with the force.This method of equilibrium was how I assume she survived. Now she didn't need to worry about oxygen..
