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Switch to Forum Live View Droids and the Force
1 year ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 9:28AM #1
richterbelmont10
Date Joined: Sep 26, 2008
Posts: 5,472

According to SECR page 188, droids are non-living and “have no connection to the Force.” That brings up a few questions:

1. Why can a droid use Force points? FP’s represent a character’s knack for using the Force or the Force is aiding their actions (SECR page 92)

2. Why do droids have a Darkside score? The DSS measures the extent to which you have been corrupted by the dark side of the Force. (SECR page 93)

3. Can you use Farseeing on a droid?

4. Can you use Wound on a droid? According to the fluff description, Wound causes “spasms in the lungs.” And if he’s moved down the CT, he must be treated with a DC 20 Treat Injury check to perform surgery. Droids don’t benefit from Treat Injury checks.

5. When Force Grip is used on a person, he is reduced to a swift action because it’s assumed he’s choking and can’t breathe. Since droids don’t breathe, why are droids also reduced to a swift action when Force Gripped?


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1 year ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 10:21AM #2
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,061
1.  Think of FP as an "Action Point" instead and that goes a long ways towards explaining why droids get FP.  To me the bigger issue, and why droids getting FP is brought up, is the Yuuzhan Vong NOT getting to use Force Points because of there relatively weak "Force Immunity" ability.  I give Vong FP/AP and the world it good.

2.  DSS is more of a measure of how "evil" a character is as opposed actual corruption by "the dark side."  It is basically SAGA's "alignment" measure with a stronger willed character (higher WIS) being better able to fend off/justify evil actions.

3.  It would seem so.  Farseeing isn't listed as a Mind-Affecting ability although I could certainly seeing it as such would would make a droid immune.

4.  Yes, you can use Wound against a droid.  The fluff part is just fluff so I'd ignore that and/or allow the user to reflavor it as desired.  As for using Treat Injury to remove the Persistent condition that is a reason to question it all together when use against a droid.  With a droid I see "Treat Injury" as saying "Mechanics" an the DCs will remain unchanged.

5.  Because you are again reading too much in the fluff.  I sometimes view "Force Grip" as causing a person heart or head troubles instead of breathing problems.  For a Droid there are any number of systems that could be affected that will reduce its avaiable actions.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 9:05PM #3
Jayim_Duinara
Date Joined: Mar 15, 2012
Posts: 12
Hello,

I would say that the Force in Star Wars often masqurades as 'luck'. Look at Threepio and Artoo. Those are some lucky droids. How else do you manage to walk across a hallway through a barrage of blaster fire and not get hit when you are briliiantly shiny? So, I would definitely say that droids are affected by the Force, even if they can't access it and don't generate it.

As for Farseeing, it depends on whether the person is wise enough to know how to look. Darth Traya at the Trayus academy had enough vision in the force to see Boba Fett four thousand years later, yet couldn't see the fates of the droids. Then again, she completely despised droids, so maybe she wouldn't see their future.

However, in some way, you must be able to sense mechanisms with the force, or there would be no way to practice your lightsaber with a remote with the bast shield on your helmet down.

In one of the Dark Forces books, Rahn is intructing Kyle Katarn against a remote. He said don't try to sense the remote itself, it doesn't have the force. Sense the force that moves around it and track the blank spot that it leaves.

Take your pick. I can probably come up with more self-contradictory evidence. =)

Jayim
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 21, 2012 - 10:52PM #4
anzat
Date Joined: Oct 1, 2007
Posts: 313

Mar 20, 2012 -- 9:28AM, richterbelmont10 wrote:

1. Why can a droid use Force points? FP’s represent a character’s knack for using the Force or the Force is aiding their actions (SECR page 92)


I've always told players that droids, though inorganic, are also sentient beings and possess and odd and limited connection to the Force. they don't produce the Force; they can't sense it or manipulate it, but the Force somehow appears to recognize their status as sentients that can alter events. this is not a philosophical issue, specifically, but one regarding the rules: the deliberate torture or even the destruction of a droid who has 'done nothing wrong' might become into a Minor Transgression and may garner an increase of someone's DSS.

In a similar way, the Force can see the way a droid can facilitate fateful events into happening, and as such the Force acts around and through the actions of droids, thus granting them the basic advantages of having Force Points.

Mar 20, 2012 -- 9:28AM, richterbelmont10 wrote:

2. Why do droids have a Darkside score? The DSS measures the extent to which you have been corrupted by the dark side of the Force. (SECR page 93)



I've never particularly liked this one - but I've come to terms with it. sadly, I found it as the best (and easiest) way to allow for effects that target 'creatures with DSS 1+' to also target droids... HOWEVER -  droids can't be Force-users, then the only way to know that one has a DSS of 1+ is if you witness the droid performing an evil act, or if it's obviously evil (such as a notorious manslaughtering rogue droid). since the gray area between this two is completely GM-dependant, most times players encounter droids, even battle droids or such, they won't know whether they have a DSS and won't be able to use such abilities and effects towards them.

Mar 20, 2012 -- 9:28AM, richterbelmont10 wrote:

3. Can you use Farseeing on a droid?



yes, you can. or at least that what I think, and I've seen nothing in the rules stating otherwise. actually, it's pretty entertaining to use Psychometry on a battle droid.

Mar 20, 2012 -- 9:28AM, richterbelmont10 wrote:

4. Can you use Wound on a droid? According to the fluff description, Wound causes “spasms in the lungs.” And if he’s moved down the CT, he must be treated with a DC 20 Treat Injury check to perform surgery. Droids don’t benefit from Treat Injury checks.


sorry I don't use wound on my games and have no experience with it, so no point in giving my opinion (or even constructing one :P)

Mar 20, 2012 -- 9:28AM, richterbelmont10 wrote:

5. When Force Grip is used on a person, he is reduced to a swift action because it’s assumed he’s choking and can’t breathe. Since droids don’t breathe, why are droids also reduced to a swift action when Force Gripped?



I assume it's more like telekinetic force that constricts and restrains some body areas of the target. this same principle can be applied to droids to prevent them from moving their joints, activating their weapons, etc.

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1 year ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 12:47PM #5
awaypturwpn
Date Joined: Oct 3, 2011
Posts: 527

Mar 21, 2012 -- 10:52PM, anzat wrote:

Mar 20, 2012 -- 9:28AM, richterbelmont10 wrote:

2. Why do droids have a Darkside score? The DSS measures the extent to which you have been corrupted by the dark side of the Force. (SECR page 93)


 

I've never particularly liked this one - but I've come to terms with it. sadly, I found it as the best (and easiest) way to allow for effects that target 'creatures with DSS 1+' to also target droids... HOWEVER -  droids can't be Force-users, then the only way to know that one has a DSS of 1+ is if you witness the droid performing an evil act, or if it's obviously evil (such as a notorious manslaughtering rogue droid). since the gray area between this two is completely GM-dependant, most times players encounter droids, even battle droids or such, they won't know whether they have a DSS and won't be able to use such abilities and effects towards them.



This is a good point and I think bears more discussion. I wouldn't give droids DSPs anywhere near as readily as I'd give a PC DSPs, unless the Droid was an Independant Droid. How unfair would it be for a droid that's just following it's programming to get a DSS increase? So yeah, your standard Battle Droid would likely NOT have a DSS just because IMO its harder to reasonably give order-following droids DSPs. Especially if they only have basic processors.



Mar 20, 2012 -- 9:28AM, richterbelmont10 wrote:

3. Can you use Farseeing on a droid?



yes, you can. or at least that what I think, and I've seen nothing in the rules stating otherwise. actually, it's pretty entertaining to use Psychometry on a battle droid.



did you mean Farseeing?
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 3:23PM #6
4lCH3M157
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 1,198

Mar 20, 2012 -- 9:28AM, richterbelmont10 wrote:


1. Why can a droid use Force points? FP’s represent a character’s knack for using the Force or the Force is aiding their actions (SECR page 92)




as others have pointed out, it's more of a "luck" thing.

2. Why do droids have a Darkside score? The DSS measures the extent to which you have been corrupted by the dark side of the Force. (SECR page 93)



Because Wizards dumped the alignment system for Star Wars. You're reading too much into fluff. Just think of it as their code becoming darker.


3. Can you use Farseeing on a droid?

4. Can you use Wound on a droid? According to the fluff description, Wound causes “spasms in the lungs.” And if he’s moved down the CT, he must be treated with a DC 20 Treat Injury check to perform surgery. Droids don’t benefit from Treat Injury checks.



To both questions, a resounding no. The power state's the target is "one creature."

If the target was "all targets in area" "one character" or "one droid" it would be a different story.

5. When Force Grip is used on a person, he is reduced to a swift action because it’s assumed he’s choking and can’t breathe. Since droids don’t breathe, why are droids also reduced to a swift action when Force Gripped?



Focussing on the fluff too much again. Think of the crushing force on the droid is causing some glitching and crossed wires, constricting the hydralics, or something.

Post count doesn't mean anything. Read the books, open your eyes, and try using common sense.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 7:30PM #7
SaltandPepper
Date Joined: Jan 5, 2012
Posts: 412
I consider droids creatures.  If you didn't consider them creatures then they wouldn't be affected by Force disarm either.  And that just doesn't make sense.

I'm sorry. I don't like disagreeing with people...

EDIT: Also, it would mean writing "living creature" would be pointless. And it is written like that for several powers, like malacia. 
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 12:01AM #8
anzat
Date Joined: Oct 1, 2007
Posts: 313

Mar 22, 2012 -- 12:47PM, awaypturwpn wrote:

This is a good point and I think bears more discussion. I wouldn't give droids DSPs anywhere near as readily as I'd give a PC DSPs, unless the Droid was an Independant Droid. How unfair would it be for a droid that's just following it's programming to get a DSS increase? So yeah, your standard Battle Droid would likely NOT have a DSS just because IMO its harder to reasonably give order-following droids DSPs. Especially if they only have basic processors.


yeah, those are good points somewhat along my line of thinking

Mar 22, 2012 -- 12:47PM, awaypturwpn wrote:

did you mean Farseeing?


Nope, I meant the Psychometry talent wich allows you to use farseeing on an object. I'd feel silly allowing players to target droids with normal farseeing. I hope they don't come up with that idea. if they do, and it's important for the plot, I'd mostly have to allow for it

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1 year ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 9:49AM #9
Leo_the_Rat
Date Joined: Oct 10, 2007
Posts: 2,144

Mar 22, 2012 -- 12:47PM, awaypturwpn wrote:

This is a good point and I think bears more discussion. I wouldn't give droids DSPs anywhere near as readily as I'd give a PC DSPs, unless the Droid was an Independant Droid. How unfair would it be for a droid that's just following it's programming to get a DSS increase? So yeah, your standard Battle Droid would likely NOT have a DSS just because IMO its harder to reasonably give order-following droids DSPs. Especially if they only have basic processors.



I've tried to think of a "more gentle" way of saying this but, Nuremburg disagrees.  Unless you are talking about a droid that is merely an extension of a remote or a droid that has been preprogrammed with no optional actions then a DSP is merited.  If a B1 can choose to target model A over Model B then it can choose its actions and be held responsible for them as well.  I sincerely doubt that you would allow a player character to avoid a DSP due to "I was only following orders". 
A droid has an intelligence score that is equal to an average human (or better in some cases) it can make decisions including not following orders or opting other choices to fulfill the order given.  For instance, let's say it has been given the order "Kill all of the children in that orphanage".  It could follow that order and should receive a DSP for it or it might chase all of the children out of the orphanage so none are within its order's parameters. 
Unless the droid is truely mindless it should be subject to the same DSP rules and penalties as any other model.  This is especially true for PC droids.  As StevenO has pointed out Force Users shouldn't be subject to a more strict following of the DSP rules.  This is my corallary to that thought, droids should not be held less accountable when following DSP rules.


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1 year ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 7:05PM #10
4lCH3M157
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 1,198

Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:30PM, SaltandPepper wrote:

I consider droids creatures.  If you didn't consider them creatures then they wouldn't be affected by Force disarm either.  And that just doesn't make sense.

I'm sorry. I don't like disagreeing with people...

EDIT: Also, it would mean writing "living creature" would be pointless. And it is written like that for several powers, like malacia. 



Sorry, but actually you're mistaken. If it is your opinion that droids are treated as creatures than state such, however by RAW they are NOT.

As for Force Disarm and many other powers, they have changes in the errata. Force Disarm's target is "One target within 12 squares and within line of sight." Emphasis mine. The change was mainly added because it didn't effect droids as previously written.

As for the second part, Farseeing for example can be used on "one creature." That means that whether dead or alive he or she can be targeted. Makes sense. Malacia however states "One living creature within 6 squares of you and in your line of sight." Why? Because the power will not, no matter what, effect a creature who is dead. Wizards thought it important to clarify on some powers that you cannot target a dead creature with the power, don't ask me why.

The only powers that effect droids are powers that state that they target one of the following: "target," "character," "droid," or something of the like.

However if you run a campaign and decide droids are creatures I would love to play in it. I mean who needs a mechanic when droids can heal naturally, be target of Vital Transfers, be put into a Force Trance, and even use the force for just a few examples?! Security droids try and stop us? Psh, Force Stun and Mind Trick away!

Shall I continue?

Anyhoo, I hope I could shed some light on the questions of the OP, off I go! *poof*

Post count doesn't mean anything. Read the books, open your eyes, and try using common sense.
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