I'm curious. In the Big Announcement thread, a number of people mentioned that they had complaints about the D6 version of Star Wars from West End Games. I didn't want to hijack that thread, so I thought I would start a new one here. Considering that we could be seeing a new Star Wars RPG from a third publisher in the future, I'd like to hear what people thought were the strengths and weaknesses of D6 vs D20.
My experience from D6 Star Wars is very limited. Whenever I played it, it never managed to capture the feel of the movies. Might have been because we were much to young so we never fully understood the system.
Star Wars d20 sounds like the pre-SAGA version, which I didn't really like either.
As JemyM has said there have really been 3 versions of a SW RPG, (with tweaks for each one), D6, D20 and SAGA. Each one has its strengths and weaknesses.
I've played both D6 and D20 extensively but was put off by SAGA so I can give a run down of what I think are the main bonuses and drawbacks for each system. Keep in mind that this is just my opinion.
D6 Character Creation (Good) Quick with templates for character concepts Advancement (Good) Skill allocation allows characters to progress as desired by player Skills (Good) No limit to type and number of skills a character can choose to define character. (Bad) Combat skills can take priority Jedi (Good/Bad) Jedi Characters start with low skills (Bad)As Jedi gain experience they can become too strong compared to non-jedi Armour (Good)Armour reduces chance of getting damaged Damage (Good)Progression of damage affects character at each stage (Good/Bad)Damage level can often be between no damage and major damage. Task Resolution (Good)Greater variety in outcome of dice rolls with multiple D6 rolled per action. (Good)Characters may try any task regardless of skill training. (Bad) Experienced characters roll many dice for each task to be resolved. Starships & vehicles (Good) Starship combat abstract but can be grid based
D20 Character Creation (Good) Quick with many classes for character concepts Advancement (Good) Skill point allocation, feats and multi classing allow characters to progress as desired (Bad) Combat attributes increase automatically even for non-combat classes. Skills (Good) No limit to type and number of skills a character can choose to define character (Bad) Skill advancement limited by the 'class skill' mechanic Jedi (Good) Number and level of force powers limited by allocation of skill points and choice of feats. (Bad) As Jedi gain experience they can become too strong compared to non-jedi Armour (Good) Armour reduces chance of getting damaged Damage (Good) Each hit affects health score (Bad) The effects of damage only shown when all vitality or all wounds reduced to 0. Task Resolution (Good) Single dice roll to determine success or failure. (Good) Characters may try any task regardless of skill training. Reduced chance of success for untrained skills. (Bad) The higher the skill rank, the less important the dice roll becomes. Starships & vehicles (Good) Starship combat abstract but can be grid based
SAGA Character Creation (Good) Quick with classes for character concepts (Bad) Limited number of classes Advancement (Good) Skill allocation streamlined (Good) Talents and Feats can be chosen to define character concept (Bad) Choice of talents and feats slows down level advancement (Bad) Talents and Feats mainly combat focused (Bad) Combat attributes increase automatically even for non-combat classes. Skills (Bad) Number of skill choice greatly reduced Jedi (Good/Bad)Reduction of choice and number of force powers available limits use of powers in game. (Bad) Jedi with certain Force Powers quickly become too strong compared to non-jedi Armour (Bad) Armour reduces chance of hit being scored. Damage (Good) Each hit affects health and condition track measures affect of big hits. (Bad/Good)Many talents and feats introduced to limit affects of damage. (Bad/Good)Two types of damage to keep track of. Task Resolution (Good) Single dice roll to determine success or failure. (Good) Characters may try most tasks regardless of skill training. (Good/Bad) Characters with untrained skills have little chance of success at first but gain experience in each skill as they progress levels. (Bad) If you are trained in a skill it must be a very difficult task before you have reasonable amount of failure. Starships & vehicles (Bad) Starship combat is based on a grid system (Bad) Starship Sizes are abstract (Bad) Weapon fire arcs do not exist
SAGA Character Creation (Good) Quick with classes for character concepts (Bad) Limited number of classes [but with a completely open multiclassing system that allows one to create a far larger total number of character concepts than one could using earlier d20 based game systems. This one should be listed as a (good)]. Advancement (Good) Skill allocation streamlined (Good) Talents and Feats can be chosen to define character concept (Bad) Choice of talents and feats slows down level advancement [huh!? I am not sure how this one make sense... how exactly do your feats or talents slow down your level advancement?] (Bad) Talents and Feats mainly combat focused [Saga actually has a plethora of non-combat encounter based feats and talents which focus on boosting skill use. Indeed, even in terms of combat, it has a plethora of non violent/social based options for players that want to create non-combat based characters. This statement is false.] (Bad) Combat attributes increase automatically even for non-combat classes. [...while I personally want to see combat/training with weapons handled as another skill option (and have house ruled my Saga to run that way), some people really like this feature (and prefer level based games for this reason). Shouldn't this then be a good/bad feature instead of just a bad feature?] Skills (Bad) Number of skill choice greatly reduced [and yet the number of actions you can perform with that skill list has not been reduced at all. In fact, characters can do more with the skills they choose then an equivalent character could in an earlier version of the d20 system. This is because each skill in the Saga system is the equivalent of a packaged group of skills from earlier d20 games. The end result is a character that can perform more actions. This one should be listed as a (good).] Jedi (Good/Bad)Reduction of choice and number of force powers available limits use of powers in game. [and helps balance Jedi's overall. You seem to be contradicting yourself with your desires. You list overpowered Jedi as a bad thing, but then complain about steps taken to balance them... you can't have your cake and eat it too.] (Bad) Jedi with certain Force Powers quickly become too strong compared to non-jedi Armour (Bad) Armour reduces chance of hit being scored [but again, while I prefer armor as DR (and have houseruled my Saga to run that way) some people really prefer armor that works this way. So, shouldn't this be listed as a good/bad feature?] Damage (Good) Each hit affects health and condition track measures affect of big hits. (Bad/Good)Many talents and feats introduced to limit affects of damage. (Bad/Good)Two types of damage to keep track of. Task Resolution (Good) Single dice roll to determine success or failure. (Good) Characters may try most tasks regardless of skill training. (Good/Bad) Characters with untrained skills have little chance of success at first but gain experience in each skill as they progress levels. (Bad) If you are trained in a skill it must be a very difficult task before you have reasonable amount of failure [...I don't agree that this is true. I think it is a false statement]. Starships & vehicles (Bad) Starship combat is based on a grid system [...and yet is fairly easy to run without a map, if you really want to]. (Bad) Starship Sizes are abstract [...which is necessary. Realistically scaling starship sizes for grid based gameplay doesn't work when the ratio of difference between a frigate/cruiser sized vessel can be up to 1:17, and the same is true of cruiser to space station sized vessels. What are you going to do, have frigates take up 1 square, have the largest cruisers take up 17 by 17 squares, and then have the space stations take up 289 by 289 squares? Where are you going to find a grid like that!? How are you going to move pieces on that grid!? This complaint is either just silly, or else I have misunderstood the complaint]. (Bad) Weapon fire arcs do not exist [and yet they are accounted for in the rules via abstraction already. All capital scale vessels are only statted with 1/2 their full weapons load. The assumption is that a vessel can not bring all of its weapons to bear in a single combat round due to firing arcs. All Saga did was abstract the system. Which, by the way, happens to make it easier to run Saga starship combat without a grid based map].
So yea, long story short, in my personal and subjective opinion, I don't agree with much of what the above quoted poster wrote. I personally hated RCR d20 Star Wars. I felt that the jedi classes were overpowered. I felt that the execution of its class system left players way too pigeonholed in terms of character concept. I felt that the system was overly complex. I think Saga is a dream come true (though I do have some issues with the system, and have heavily house ruled it in order to fix those issues). As for d6, it has been a very long time since I played that. From what I remember, I felt that the jedi characters were horribly overpowered, and that you had to roll way too many dice to resolve your actions. But it has been so long since I played that I don't really trust my memory to accurately judge its merits. I do, however, remember really not liking it at the time.
I've played both D6 and D20 extensively but was put off by SAGA so I can give a run down of what I think are the main bonuses and drawbacks for each system. Keep in mind that this is just my opinion.
D6 Character Creation (Good) Quick with templates for character concepts Advancement (Good) Skill allocation allows characters to progress as desired by player Skills (Good) No limit to type and number of skills a character can choose to define character. (Bad) Combat skills can take priority Jedi (Good/Bad) Jedi Characters start with low skills (Bad)As Jedi gain experience they can become too strong compared to non-jedi Armour (Good)Armour reduces chance of getting damaged Damage (Good)Progression of damage affects character at each stage (Good/Bad)Damage level can often be between no damage and major damage. Task Resolution (Good)Greater variety in outcome of dice rolls with multiple D6 rolled per action. (Good)Characters may try any task regardless of skill training. (Bad) Experienced characters roll many dice for each task to be resolved. Starships & vehicles (Good) Starship combat abstract but can be grid based
I can't personally comment on this one as I never played that system much, but the number of dice used to resolve effects drastically increases over time. After a while, you spend more time totalling the results than actually playing the game.
D20 Character Creation (Good) Quick with many classes for character concepts Advancement (Good) Skill point allocation, feats and multi classing allow characters to progress as desired (Bad) Combat attributes increase automatically even for non-combat classes. Skills (Good) No limit to type and number of skills a character can choose to define character (Bad) Skill advancement limited by the 'class skill' mechanic Jedi (Good) Number and level of force powers limited by allocation of skill points and choice of feats. (Bad) As Jedi gain experience they can become too strong compared to non-jedi Armour (Good) Armour reduces chance of getting damaged Damage (Good) Each hit affects health score (Bad) The effects of damage only shown when all vitality or all wounds reduced to 0. Task Resolution (Good) Single dice roll to determine success or failure. (Good) Characters may try any task regardless of skill training. Reduced chance of success for untrained skills. (Bad) The higher the skill rank, the less important the dice roll becomes. Starships & vehicles (Good) Starship combat abstract but can be grid based
I have a few opinions on this that differ from yours: *Character creation, especially at high levels, is actually quite slow. Even for experienced players, it could take 1/2 hour plus to create 20th level characters which isn't GM friendly. *It's true that there were plenty of classes, but in my experience a few were almost useless. You were often better playing a Scout over a Fringer, Scoundrel over Tech Specialist, Jedi Guardian over Jedi Consular (though this last is less so than the other two) just due to the lack of useful/usable special abilities those classes granted. *Skill point allocation, as mentioned above, slows down character creation alot and even the best of players can make mistakes here (too many/too few points spent). In addition, most players focus on only a few skills and don't bother with the rest making the abundance more a hindrance. *Damage is a big one here and GMSarli mentions it in his e20 system design, but critical hits are far too lethal. A 20th level character stands a good chance of dying from an attack from a 1st level character. Very few characters would survive over the course of a campaign as a result.
My biggest gripe with d20 (OCR/RCR) is the fact that it is D&D with a Star Wars veneer - the rule system doesn't reflect the genre very well as it over emphasises Melee combat in a setting that (with a few notable exceptions) is more based on Ranged combat. There are other aspects that don't mesh well, but that's the one I'm not keen on.
SAGA Character Creation (Good) Quick with classes for character concepts (Bad) Limited number of classes Advancement (Good) Skill allocation streamlined (Good) Talents and Feats can be chosen to define character concept (Bad) Choice of talents and feats slows down level advancement (Bad) Talents and Feats mainly combat focused (Bad) Combat attributes increase automatically even for non-combat classes. Skills (Bad) Number of skill choice greatly reduced Jedi (Good/Bad)Reduction of choice and number of force powers available limits use of powers in game. (Bad) Jedi with certain Force Powers quickly become too strong compared to non-jedi Armour (Bad) Armour reduces chance of hit being scored. Damage (Good) Each hit affects health and condition track measures affect of big hits. (Bad/Good)Many talents and feats introduced to limit affects of damage. (Bad/Good)Two types of damage to keep track of. Task Resolution (Good) Single dice roll to determine success or failure. (Good) Characters may try most tasks regardless of skill training. (Good/Bad) Characters with untrained skills have little chance of success at first but gain experience in each skill as they progress levels. (Bad) If you are trained in a skill it must be a very difficult task before you have reasonable amount of failure. Starships & vehicles (Bad) Starship combat is based on a grid system (Bad) Starship Sizes are abstract (Bad) Weapon fire arcs do not exist
Again, a few differences of opinion here: *A Limited number of classes is a good thing rather than bad, as the talent trees in each class define the type you are. You can still be a Fringer - you just select those talent trees that match the concept from the Scout class. *I'm not seeing how talent/feat selection slows down character advancement/development - I've statted 20th level characters in 10 minutes in SE compared to the 30+ required for OCR/RCR. *The number of skills has been reduced, but as I mentioned for d20, there are alot of skills you wouldn't bother training in anyway. No function has been lost as the skills are condensed (Perception = Spot, Search and Listen) - this can lead to other problems, but it is easier and quicker in SE than d20 to choose where to go skill-wise.
I prefer SE primarily because it fits the setting far better than d20 was able to.
"Oh sir, just one thing - if we should happen to tread on a mine, what do we do?" "... Well, normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet into the air and scatter yourself over a wide area." - Lieutenant the Honourable George Colthurst St Barleigh (Hugh Laurie) and Captain Edmund Blackadder (Rowan Atkinson) from Blackadder Goes Forth: Captain Cook
well, this is a great discussion, I really like the comparisons of the three systems.
Darth_Scorpion: "...critical hits are far too lethal. A 20th level character stands a good chance of dying from an attack from a 1st level character. Very few characters would survive over the course of a campaign as a result."
this is a false statement. CL19 Darth Vader (SWSE pg261&262) fired upon by level 1 PC billy-jo bob using a heavy blaster pistol (dmg 3d8) can only hit DV on a 20 and then even if PC gets max damage (24 points),the hit doesn't meet DV's damage threshold (Thr=36), meaning DV doesn't die.
Darth_Scorpion: "...statted 20th level characters in 10 minutes in SE compared to the 30+ required for OCR/RCR."
using just the books? sorry, but that just a bit too much even to simply ignore. Developing a PC character of any level takes the time to build the first level plus time to add on each following level. Having said that, generating some random NPC would be quite different.
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together" -- Carl Zwanzig
well, this is a great discussion, I really like the comparisons of the three systems.
Darth_Scorpion: "...critical hits are far too lethal. A 20th level character stands a good chance of dying from an attack from a 1st level character. Very few characters would survive over the course of a campaign as a result."
this is a false statement. CL19 Darth Vader (SWSE pg261&262) fired upon by level 1 PC billy-jo bob using a heavy blaster pistol (dmg 3d8) can only hit DV on a 20 and then even if PC gets max damage (24 points),the hit doesn't meet DV's damage threshold (Thr=36), meaning DV doesn't die.
Crits do double damage, not maximum...Therefore 3D8 does up to 48 damage on a critical, not 24...
Darth_Scorpion: "...critical hits are far too lethal. A 20th level character stands a good chance of dying from an attack from a 1st level character. Very few characters would survive over the course of a campaign as a result."
this is a false statement. CL19 Darth Vader (SWSE pg261&262) fired upon by level 1 PC billy-jo bob using a heavy blaster pistol (dmg 3d8) can only hit DV on a 20 and then even if PC gets max damage (24 points),the hit doesn't meet DV's damage threshold (Thr=36), meaning DV doesn't die.
Actually, DS was talking about the Revised Core Rules there. In RCR, every character had Vitality Points (VP) and Wound Points (WP). VP went up with level, while WP stayed equal to your Constitution score (barring certain feats). When damaged, your VP were depleted first, then WP; however, instead of doing double damage, a crit dealt damage directly to WP.
So in RCR, it was entirely possible for a crit from level 1 Billy-Jo Bob to take down Darth Vader.
Josh Cheesman - student journalist and Star Wars fan.
well, this is a great discussion, I really like the comparisons of the three systems.
Darth_Scorpion: "...critical hits are far too lethal. A 20th level character stands a good chance of dying from an attack from a 1st level character. Very few characters would survive over the course of a campaign as a result."
this is a false statement. CL19 Darth Vader (SWSE pg261&262) fired upon by level 1 PC billy-jo bob using a heavy blaster pistol (dmg 3d8) can only hit DV on a 20 and then even if PC gets max damage (24 points),the hit doesn't meet DV's damage threshold (Thr=36), meaning DV doesn't die.
Crits do double damage, not maximum...Therefore 3D8 does up to 48 damage on a critical, not 24...
oops, right, double damage (SWSE pg145). So, that makes the damage threshold, so DV drops down one on the condition track, meaning DV doesn't die, again.
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together" -- Carl Zwanzig
