Community

Netdecking

For the benefit of less experienced gamers, Kael Dronna gave me the idea of posting a thread about netdecking and why people often react very harshly to it.

What is "netdecking"?

Netdecking is a practice in gaming circles in which people go to message boards of collectible/constructible games and copy the squads/decks of top players and champions. They then usually use these squads in tournaments to gain an edge over their local competition.

Why is it a problem?

1. Netdecking is laziness and mooching at its most extreme.

Netdeckers are people that take the idea of not reinventing the wheel to an extreme. Rather than doing work themselves to learn how to play a game, they prefer to just take that work from others.

Netdeckers also tend to think that understanding games is just about understanding decks or squads. Once you know the best squads, you should always be able to win with them, in the netdeckers mind. What the netdecker misses is other factors that influence the outcome of games, namely who you play and how they play. They will always minimize these factors when discussing games with others.

2. It siphons away time of players on the boards that could genuinely be used to help others.

So the real question here is: "If we have a finite amount of human hours to help people on the boards, who should we help?" Most people agree that if there needs to be a choice, the time should be spent helping those that genuinely want to improve at the game, over those that are just looking for free hand outs.

3. Netdeckers are poor role models IRL and online.

You can usually spot a netdecker IRL because they bring highly competitive squads to tournaments and can't play them properly.

When netdeckers go to tournaments, they usually do several things:

1) Communicate to new players that playing games effectively is about the pieces you have and how you put them together, not how you play them. This gives new players the false impression that they can win by "having" certain pieces without concern for how to play them. This stunts the ability of new players to improve.

2) They suggest that the netdecker is a top player of the game and therefore is a source of advice for new players when in reality they are not. When netdeckers win, they are usually winning because of whom they are playing, not what they are playing. They win a lot against kids and inexperrienced players. They like this, because it gives them a perceived level of gamer status, when in reality they are just a tourist.

3) They suggest to new players that established gamers act like this and just makes the job of the legtimate gamer who is trying to help others harder. It cultivates mistrust with people.

4)They suggest that playing collectible games is entirely about what you can afford. Collectible games can be very expensive depending upon how much you want to collect. The cool thing about collectible games is that you don't HAVE to HAVE to participate. Local communities can take many steps to help a player participate even if they don't have the funds to do so in a "serious collector" manner. Netdecking can give newer players that don't have a lot of money the false impression that the only way to win is to have the best figures. Having better figures can help, but player SKILL is the biggest determinant of success. A local community that supports players regardless of monetary status sends the clear message that playing games is first and foremost about fun, and that you don't have to possess to have a good time.

How do I spot a net decker?

This is tricky. Most of the time, netdeckers will just bounce unto a forum and not so subtely say: "What are the best squads in this game?" Naive people give them the squads not realizing that they are just looking for a handout to go use to try to beat up on weaker players at an LGS.

IRL, a netdecker can be spotted by where they go, and how they converse. As noted above, netdeckers usually go to venues with a preponderance of inexperienced players with who they can, consciously or unconsciously, take advantage. They leave if those people aren't there and they can't accomplish their goals.

Often times it isn't that easy to detect them. Sometimes inexperienced players or gamers post in this matter without realizing that there are slimey people doing the same thing for a different purpose. This should be taken into consideration when experienced players post in response. New players can help the experinced players identify their intent by following forum guidelines. On this forum, it is number six in the forum rules sticky. Always post a squad to elicit feedback. Posting "What are the best squads" or "Make me a squad" looks like laziness and netdecking and since those things are not appreciated by the community, people react to it. Taking the time to just post one squad goes a long way to letting experienced players know your intentions.

A good signal that a person is NOT a netdecker is if they ask for squad ideas that clearly are not top competitive. This person is likely genuinely looking for ideas and we should be supportive, while reminding them gently of the forum rules. This is something that I plan to personally work on to improve.

Experienced players acting harshly to people just seeking help is not ok, and I for one will admit that I need to work on this. The baggage of a long gaming community history of netdecking is working against us in that regard.

How do I deal with a netdecker?

1) Beat them at their own game. Most netdeckers can be simply out-played and therefore shown that netdecking DOESN'T WORK against experienced players. Experience is more valuable than squad construction or luck. A story: We've had quite a few netdeckers in our area. They usually don't last very long. The most recent one involved a player that we had never seen before showing up at our venue. He didn't talk much but, as is an unwritten expectation in our group, tried to make him feel welcome. He had a common squad that had been posted on extensively. He went 0-4 with it. We never saw him again. Now, some of you might say: "He had a horrible time and lost so he didn't want to come back." That's logical, but that isn't what happened. We have no trouble at NE venues retaining players even when they lose. We work hard to make everyone feel welcome and want to keep coming back. Ourtournaments are great fun whether you win or lose. Most players are interested in improving and understand that you may lose quite a few games before you can start winning. Netdeckers aren't interested in improvement. They want to WIN NOW, and if they can't do that they will usually move on to another game to net-deck or to a different venue to try to dominate. Do I know for certain that the guy was a netdecker? No. But all the signs are there. We have all been playing games for a long time and know the type. Note that the goal here is NOT to get rid of people. Remember, we were super nice to him and would have liked if he would keep coming back. But netdeckers don't WANT to take the time to improve. They want to win in the quickest and easiest way possible.

2) Make the social environment at your venue a TOP priority.

One of the dangers of netdeckers is that they 1) threaten the ability of experienced local community members to establish fair play and fun at a location and they 2) usually end up establishing a history of bad advice to new players. By setting social interaction as a priority at your venue, you can be a strong positive force that will usually win out over all the negative propoganda. It also helps to start developing a rerputation for fair play and accuracy at your venue so that new players can recognize immediately that you are the reliable source for information. Pointing out rules sources and fully explaining the reason for rulings shows new players that you can back up what you say. A netdecker will never mention where to find a quationable ruling because most of the time they know that knoweldge will identify them. If they are hiding or conveniently not mentioning where to find something, that is a signal that they are happy with people remaining ignorant. If possible, print the FAQ or have it available on a store computer or PDA. When you continually reference it and the netdecker doesn't, people get that YOU are interested in fair play. That way your positive advice can have a much more constructive effect on them.

To newer players:

This thread is NOT intended to make anyone feel bad for any future or past posts that you have made or could make. In fact, it is important to mention here that the whole PURPOSE of having a squad critique forum is for you to get ideas. NOBODY in this game invents anything or has exclusive intellectual property rights to ANYTHING. There are combos that are obvious to some and not to others. There are combos that are not so obvious. But, with thousands of people playing this game, there is no point in thinking about whether someone "invented" something. If you bring a squad to a tournament and do your best, have a positive attitude, and are intent on improving at the game, that is NOT netdecking. Netdecking happens when people purposely try to gain an advantage selfishly through methods that ruin the fun aspect of game environments. If you happen to copy someone's squad you are NOT, by default, a netdecker. It is nice to cite sources online if you have them, but by no means necessary. I would suggest just trying to avoid ever claiming "credit" for something that is frequently an organic result of multiple minds working together or independently.

Kael Dronna said it well:

Attitude has a lot to do with netdecking. Playing these squads does not mean you are a netdecker, but take a look at why you are playing the squad. Is it because you only want to win at all costs, or that it's just another squad in your repoitoire? Good players can take a meta squad and win a tournament. Great players can take a mediocre squad and win the same tournament.

I wrote this thread because I want people to understand that stopping netdecking can start on the internet. There are right ways to stop it and wrong ways and I regret that I have sometimes not exercised caution in addressing it. If we can address net-decking here on the forums, it prevents peoples LGS' from experiencing the problems later. So, please continue to ask questions and please follow the forum rules. I WANT to help new players understand the game better. At the same time, I also want to stop netdeckers from having negative influences on LGS'.

So you broke almost ALL of the guidelines of posting with this thread. This belongs in General, not Squad Critique, just like threads made to complain about rules belongs in General, not the Rules forum.

Also, you should probably say something about how it isn't bad to look at squads other people have built and use some of their ideas. Not every squad you build has to be 100% your own idea. Reading other squads and getting ideas for your own are great ways to improve your own ability for squad building. Even completely copying squads and playing them is a good was to improve; would you really blame someone for finding out what squads did well at GenCon, then try those squads out for themselves so they can learn WHY they did well? Even if they just completely copied them, there are very honest and good reasons to do so. Just because I know what won GenCon last year, does that mean that I shouldn't ever play that exact squad, because it's "netdecking"? I don't think so. I think that playing it, learning it, learning what made it a great squad, what can beat it, what it can beat, etc. is a great way to improve your game.

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you at all. People who ONLY play with squads that they hear are "top tier" without ever building their own squads are very likely lesser players than people who can make their own "top tier" squads, and hurt the game as a whole. But I think that your post might scare players away from ever playing a squad that isn't 100% their own ideas, which isn't necessarily best.

Actually, I think this would be better in an Sblock at the top of the "Meta Squads" sticky.

Great Article

-KD

The only reason I didn't put this in general is because I think it belongs HERE, because this is the only forum that the issue affects.

I will add a section on how to deal with the net-decker. That part will be short, FYI, because there are two solutions that almost always works. Their difficulty is debatable.

Edit: added further suggestions and clarifications to reflect points by Echo, Kenred and Kael_Dronna.

Engineer wrote:

Some folks are really offended by the truth. Good post.

Sigged....and QFT.

klecser wrote:

The only reason I didn't put this in general is because I think it belongs HERE, because this is the only forum that the issue affects.

Fair enough, I suppose. This would actually make a good sticky for this forum.

Your additions more or less addressed what my point was, so good job. I agree that netdecking is a big problem in the gaming community as a whole (SWM is far from my first "collectable" game), and your post is a good response to it.

To kind of expand upon Kael's last point: I think that the most important point you make is the "Beat them at their own game" part. If someone is really a netdecker, this is often fairly easy. I actually took a very long hiatus from competitive SWM between Universe and KotOR (I moved and didn't have anyone else to really play with where I'm living now until recently). When I started playing regularly again, I mostly had figures that were very, very far outdated. However, I would often beat people who were playing with some of the newest and best figures. Why? Because I played better. SWM isn't a game about ownership; that is, it isn't about "I own [insert top-tier pieces here, so I can win any game". It's about skill. I can bring a squad made primarily of pieces from the first three sets and beat people who are playing with much more up-to-date collections. That's something netdeckers don't understand. It isn't all WHAT you play, it's also HOW you play.