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4 years ago ::
Mar 31, 2009 - 4:37AM
#21
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Date Joined:
May 15, 2006
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Maybe the problem is that you threw TWO massive threats against the party in the first place?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the gut reaction to something like that "kill it before it kills us!" or something along those lines?
Quite frankly, I think YOU are the problem with YOUR GAME, and not move object.
I do not say this to offend, but to inform, so, let us continue on. If the problem was simply that every time the party fought any threat, they just used move object to utterly destroy it without giving it a chance to fight back, then yes, that's a legitimate problem.
Now, if they do this anytime a MASSIVE walking ENGINE of DESTRUCTION comes along, then, it's not move object that's that problem.
And then they come in pairs? Yeash.
I threw an ATST prototype at one of my players, and made him take it on alone. He was level 19 at the time, and used move object to throw it out the open bay of the hanger he was in at the time. A perfect use of technique, enviroment, and creativity.
Had it been a Sith he was fighting, I would be upset, and take him to task on a 'challange bypass'.
See the difference? One of those fights, he has a chance without resorting to the force as a whuppin' stick.
The other one, he's ROYALLY SCREWED.
Perhaps you should reflect on what kind of challanges you throw at players, how they play, and if they have a reasonable chance of winning or not.
It's not fun to be atomized, or eaten alive.
I'm speaking about this from experience, naturally. My party of three used to regularly fight packs of adult red dragons while we were level eight. The only joy we got out of that, was the look on the DM's face when we won.
There's no fun in getting your rump handed to you, just because the Game Master feels like amusing himself with his 'playthings'.
Remember, you're not the only one playing the game here.
You might have to start tailoring your games to what your players enjoy, rather than challanges that only Luke Skywalker could handle in the books. If the players aren't having any fun, then the GM usually finds himself on the end of these kinds of issues.... Or sitting at a table alone.
That could come next if you don't have a conversation with your group about how everything is going.
Note, I said a conversation WITH, not AT your players.
I once had my old DM try to talk at our group. He also stormed out of the appartment when I suggested he go around the table and ask the other players if they were having fun. They weren't, but were polite about it.
TL;DR version - Talk to your players, or you might end up losing them when the game stops being a fun RPG, and starts being 'kill that thing over there too guys!'.
NOTE- TL;DR stands for 'Too Long; Didn't Read'.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 31, 2009 - 4:50AM
#22
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I understand that this is an annoying digression when these discussions come up, but would a Jedi (with a capital J) ever agree to hold up a living creature with the Force and allow it to be shot like a pinata? That's pretty questionable in my book.
AT-STs and friends can fight back at least, but using the Force to render something helpless for the purpose of killing it ought to be discouraged.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 31, 2009 - 6:20AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2004
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well first off are you sure your understanding of the Move Object is correct?
Not to say its not but I would read over it very carefully and make sure you understand the rule and the ectercca that came out about that.
that said creative ways to deal with the problem:
Have the PC's Jedi Master tell them to stop usuing that power. Role play it out where the master has them back to the temple and lets them how upset he is that they do not understand the force.
No more one big bad enemy. Not to cause problem but its a common problem for a lot of game and gamers. Don't do it. Its not even realstic, when was the last time you saw one guy take 4 and win? does not happen. your main bad guy is smart use that. He should have body guards. he should prep the terrain in his favor..
Have a piece of technology left-over from a long forgotten empire that has a small effect of nullfing the force.. Force power will not work and since it is old after the fight there can be a good chance that it does not work.. It might also provide an adventure hook or two.
Ban Move Object. Your the GM ban it outright. If it is getting in the way of the story get rid of it. Your players may not like but tell them they are abusing it.
Thats just off the top of my head. Be creative and make sure you understand the power and what does and what it does not. From there everything else will follow.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 31, 2009 - 6:30AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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No reason why two Rancors can't be shadowed by a bunch of smaller critters...
Like Velociraptors or scavengers that follow around a T-rex...They know the Rancors are going for food, so they're going to follow and pick up the bones...Or in this case, they see a victim standing motionless so they take advantage of the distractiion cause by the Rancors to get some easy pickings...Move Object isn't going to help you when you have 6 small creatures ripping at you... 
Sounds like the Rancor battles in The Force Unleashed video game. They were rarely without a swarm of everspawning Felucians (or even Felucian riders) who could do various other things to the party.
I understand that this is an annoying digression when these discussions come up, but would a Jedi (with a capital J) ever agree to hold up a living creature with the Force and allow it to be shot like a pinata? That's pretty questionable in my book.
AT-STs and friends can fight back at least, but using the Force to render something helpless for the purpose of killing it ought to be discouraged.
I concur, this would be a Dark Side Point in my game. Using Move Object to immobilize is one thing, but using it to prevent the Rancor from fighting back while it's summarily slaughtered is another.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 31, 2009 - 7:39AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Dec 30, 2006
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"I want a major cinematic encounter with one enormous monster against a party of lots"
Now, that works in D&D.
In Star Wars, let's go over the "enormous monster" encounters.
TPM had giant fish vs the Bongo.
AotC had Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padmé facing one beast each (and no weapons).
RotS had... well, it didn't have one, except in the book where the seeker drone was coming after Obi-Wan and there was a monster there too. He mind tricked the monster into going after the seekers and leaving him alone.
ANH had the Dianoga hiding in with the rubbish. It only tried to eat Luke.
ESB had the giant space slug nearly eat the Falcon.
RotJ had the Rancor vs Luke, and then the Sarlacc as a terrain hazard.
Do you see where I'm going with this?
Unless the critter can conceivably match or surpass the party for actions, it is going to lose... unless the terrain works to its advantage and it can make surprise attacks and stuff. That giant sand worm thing from Jedi Knight 3 is, like the Dianoga, an example of a hidden critter.
The problem with most critters is that they don't have ranged attacks... ooh, that gives me an idea.
Where did I put it?
*searches*
Aha. Converted Taozin.
Taozin (CL12)
Gargantuan Subterranean Beast 12
Init +4; Senses Darkvision, Perception +15
Defences Ref 13 (flat-footed 13), Fort 19, Will 9
hp 180; Threshold 39 DR 15 (retained against lightsabres)
Immune Sense Surroundings, Force Perception
Speed 3 squares walk, 3 squares climb
Melee +15 bite with Power Attack 4 (3d6+28) or
Ranged +7 web (grapple)
Fighting Space 5 x 2; Reach 2 squares
Base Attack +9; Grapple +34
Abilities Str 31 Dex 7 Con 28 Int 3 Wis 8 Cha 2
Feats Power Attack, Skill Focus (Perception), Skill Training (Climb, Survival, Stealth)
Skills Climb +21, Perception +15*, Survival +10, Stealth -6 (+4 in the dark)
* may re-roll, keeping second result.
Camouflage – a Taozin gains a +10 bonus to stealth checks made in dark conditions due to its naturally translucent nature.
Lightsabre Diffusion – in addition to retaining its Damage Reduction against lightsabres, when a Taozin is struck by a lightsabre, the energy from the blade “splashes” in all directions, dealing normal lightsabre damage to every target within one square of the Taozin (this functions as a normal area attack)
Web – A Taozin can spew an adhesive web at its prey as a ranged attack (use pistol ranges). The web covers a 4 square by 4 square area and functions like an area attack against the Reflex Defence of everything in the target area. Creatures hit by the web are effectively pinned. If they succeed at an opposed grapple check they can escape with a DC20 Strength check or DC25 Acrobatics check as a full round action. If the web is set on fire, it burns away in 1d4+1 rounds. Anything still trapped in the burning web takes 2d4 damage each turn.
It's morphin time! ...Oh wait, wrong universe. Now where did I put my lightsabre?
Winner of "You Build the Character 16 - Wedge Antilles" and "You Make the ... Contest 3 - Elite Forces"
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4 years ago ::
Mar 31, 2009 - 10:11AM
#26
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That giant sand worm thing from Jedi Knight 3 is, like the Dianoga, [extremely awesome].
Fixed that for you. 
Good advice! :D
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4 years ago ::
Mar 31, 2009 - 10:32AM
#27
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MonjiO,
Having had similar experiences, I feel your pain!
The rules for some Force powers are totally broken - primarily Force Grip & Move Object.
With the agreement of my Jedi player (Who could also see the problem) I've upped the DC numbers for Move Object by +10 and that has helped to restore some balance to the game.
(And I've made Force Grip a Dark Side Power).
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4 years ago ::
Mar 31, 2009 - 1:05PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2007
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Yeah, I've got gripes with Move Object, especially at low levels where it pretty much hoses whatever it hits.
As far as the big one versus PCs:
My rule of thumb developed over the years is that PCs can beat one of anything. That is, unless the levels are totally unreasonable, there always seems to be a way to bring down a single critter, almost no matter how big, because of clever play, creative tactics, or just plain dumb luck (or a combo of those). This is just one of those places where RPGs don't really match movie action - in movies, you can have the heroes spend a round or two acting scared and looking for cover and trying things that don't really work; in a game, the PCs turn into rabid wolverines, instinctively seeking the weak points and swarming with their most potent attacks. PCs, all but the most fanatical "roleplayers," are there to win or die trying, not provide moments of tension for the audience.
I don't think the multiple-monster scenario is bad; after all, pretty much the only significant star-vs-critter fights in the films were one-to-one: Luke/rancor, Geonosian arena, etc. The problem is that it's very hard to pull that off in an RPG. Either you end up spending a whole fight with one guy off by himself, or the PCs team up and take down one monster at a time. (And, really, the Geonosian arena fight was only a few rounds of prisoner-vs-monsters, followed by a couple rounds of send-in-the-army-and-demand-surrender-banter. Then Yoda's cavalry showed up and the stars took off to the next encounter...)
My take is if you really want a one-against-many enconter, go over the top: make the opponent a super star destroyer, or that overgrown space slug in the asteroid belt. If the PCs just try to whack it, they are going to lose, period. It's huge, it's practically invulnerable, and it has two orders of magnitude more HP than the party. Put together. Plus, it has the ability to attack doing huge damage and at any distance the PCs are likely to appear.
Now, having said that, the way the PCs deal with it is to take on a part of it: attacking the eyes or sensors will do certain things, and they don't have +90 defense or 12054 hit points. Getting inside (whether through boarding, getting captured, or being swallowed) allows attacks from inside against various internal systems/organs, which have weaker defenses and fewer weapons. Command control can be interfered with, through trickery or diplomacy. And so forth. In short, make the encounter not so much a single big bad thing as an assembly of several big bad thingies, but ones which can be dealt with separately. The fight may still require someone to be outside, so that the critter/ship doesn't eat the local starbase/planet, but direct attack is not going to win the day.
And, of course, minions should be part of the mix - starfighters, mynocks, mad rontos, whatever - just to give the PCs some extra harassment and give them something they *can* shoot down quickly.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 01, 2009 - 12:27AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Sep 14, 2003
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Player was using Move Object in my game last night, and other than the reference to Flying creatures & vehicles, it's doesn't say the Target cannot move even if the power is Maintained.
The party were fighting a Boma.
So I ruled it the Jedi could Maintain 'concentration' to Move Object the next round but the creature could still move, hence the jedi would hurl the creature backwards, but then it just got to Charge back.
That worked last night but I am looking around to see how others rule it for future encounters.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 01, 2009 - 9:37AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2008
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If the target being moved can hold to something, like a tree, I would allow him to make a str check to break free.
In the case of a creature caught on move obj being attacked, I think this would disturb the user of move obj, thus I would require a UTF check to mantain, w/ a DC 5 pts lower compared to the DC of the user suffering dmg.
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