Community

Man_of_Marvels wrote:

However, Darl_Loh, i disagree with your first point. Although a crowd would be greatly displeased with yoda and/or palpatine being offed or defeated by some Teras Kasi master, this does not mean that such an encounter could not take place, or be unjustifiable. The problem is the godlike status that can be attributed to the jedi. As you stated, the jedi rely on the force for combat, this is their greatest weakness because the force, as omnipotent as it potentially is, is wielded by a non perfect being. In no way does having any other character perhaps being able to defeat a jedi demean the source material. In fact there are a number of instances that this occurs.

This exact point is strongly made by Kreia in TSL and is, to a degree, a minor theme in the game.

Man_of_Marvels wrote:

The one thing i am interested in would be the part you mention in part three. One of the coolest fight scenes i have ever read was the fight scene between Corran Horn and Gantoris. The entire battle is described through the force and the reliance that a jedi has on the force while in combat is clearly illustrated, specifically the precog abilities used. It would be amazing to see this facet of jedi combat elaborated on.

Glad we agree on this one.  Hopefully the developers feel the same way. 

Man_of_Marvels wrote:

However, Darl_Loh, i disagree with your first point. Although a crowd would be greatly displeased with yoda and/or palpatine being offed or defeated by some Teras Kasi master, this does not mean that such an encounter could not take place, or be unjustifiable. The problem is the godlike status that can be attributed to the jedi. As you stated, the jedi rely on the force for combat, this is their greatest weakness because the force, as omnipotent as it potentially is, is wielded by a non perfect being. In no way does having any other character perhaps being able to defeat a jedi demean the source material. In fact there are a number of instances that this occurs.

I think a defeat of a master like Yoda or Sidious in this situation is unjustifiable.  Not because they have the force, but because they are highly trained/skilled PLUS the force.  It is pretty well established that the force allows the Jedi to predict their opponents actions, increase their physical strength, speed and reflexes as well as perform superhuman feats of acrobatics.  Instead of the example of Yoda vs the Teras Kasi Master, let’s take the Teras Kasi Master and have him fight a force sensitive version of himself.  Let’s assume both the real master and the doppelganger are the same age and have been training in Teras Kasi since childhood.  The only difference is one of them is also powerful in the force and thus has been cultivating that talent in addition to his Teras Kasi abilities.  This means the doppelganger can enhance his speed, reflexes and strength beyond human levels, can predict his opponent’s actions and can perform attacks (i.e. wire king fu type moves) that would be impossible for a real person (the other Teras Kasi Master) to do.  It seems a stretch to say our Teras Kasi Master would have much of chance of beating the doppelganger.  Sure he could get lucky or maybe trick his opponent and get in a knockout blow, but probably 8 or 9 out of ten fights the doppelganger wins.  I think this argument follows both logically and from Star Wars movies and EU.  I, by no means, have an encyclopedic knowledge of Star Wars.  If you have some examples that contradict this, please share.  About the only sources I can think of that might conflict are the KOTOR games and Luke vs the Nohgri.  I vaguely remember Luke having a rough time with the Nohgri when he first encountered them.  However, I doubt anyone thinks that a non Force Sensitive Nohgri could seriously challenge Luke at his peak.  As for KOTOR, there were a lot of Mandalorian melee fighters, but I always got the impression that it was their armor and personal shields that made them able to challenge the Jedi in melee.  Also, at that time, most of the Jedi weren’t fighting the Mandalorians as the council had forbidden it.  As far as I know we never get a consistent feel for how well the Jedi did vs the Mandalorians in melee combat.  Arcas_Shan while attempting to refute my point, actually makes my point for me right here:

Arcas_Shan wrote:

Of course you can win against a Jedi in melee, look at the Mandalorians of KOTOR. Jedi are good, but you can still beat them with superior skill and some surprises.

Note you say superior skill…I am specifically referencing characters of similar levels of skill (rpg terms = same level).  You also say “some surprises”…which clearly contradicts my point where surprises aren’t allowed.  Certainly in the situation you describe, I have no qualms with a non Force Sensitive winning.  He has overcome his disadvantage with superior skill and surprises. 

Arcas_Shan wrote:

Of course you could see gadgets like flamethrowers, cortosis gauntlets and mandalorian armor as cheating, but then the lightsabers and the force too would be cheating.

I think my viewpoint is quite clear here:

Darl_Loh wrote:

Now, I’m calling Stealth/Surprise, Yuuzhan Vong, Cybernetics and special equipment, super alien physiology cheating, but let’s face it, that is exactly what the Force is…cheating.

So if you and I are playing poker (assuming we are both equally skilled) and I am cheating, while you are playing fair, how could you be expected to win.  You wouldn’t be.  Sure you could get extremely lucky, but most of the time you would lose in this situation.  I think that is the real point I am trying to make here.  That currently, in Saga, merely by being trained in UtF you gain no advantage in combat (except limited see in the dark).  You need to spend feats and talents to apply your UtF skill to combat.  While you are spending your feats and talents on force related abilities the non Force Sensitive is spending them on other feats and talents.  It all rolls into the perfectly balanced system that Saga is.  However, it seems like we are missing the edge that Battlemind and Enhance ability gave Force Users in the RCR.  These skills gave a Force User a significant edge in battle, and were developed separately from their feats and class abilities.  We see this very thing represented throughout the Star Wars universe.  The best example being the untrained Anakin using the Force to enhance his reflexes enough to be a pod racer.  I can’t think of any others from the EU on the top of my head, but I distinctly remember reading several times about characters who didn’t know that they were Force Sensitive but were able to predict their opponent’s actions and enhance their own abilities.  I understand what I am talking about would shift the game balance, which is why I tried to emphasize that the rules should be optional.  I think Saga works great, but it isn’t 100% accurate.  So I think adding some optional rules that violate game balance a little but better account for the generalized benefits a Force Sensitive combatant has over a non Force Sensitive one, has merit.  Everyone wouldn’t use it, but I think enough would to merit their creation. 

Man_of_Marvels wrote:

On the Fourth point about cinematics for lightsaber duels: Unfortunately not much can be done about the content of the cinematic portion of a campaign other than what the GM, with assit. from the players, comes up with, which is generally the main issue with cinematic scenes. Yet, if you are looking for a system for special combat during these cinematic scenes, you could always, in the vein of recent games as you have stated, have a series of contested rolls appropiate to the action attempted. The great thing about cinematic gameplay is not that the combat is according to the rules but feels like some ***** was kicked and there ain't no more room for names. You may have some opposition if you have or are a rules lawyer, but perhaps you can explain that for this specific scene i am laying down other rules.

Also a trick i learned from my uncle that relates to helping out the content of the cinematic scenes: if you are not very good at impromptu explanation of a battle scene, or anything i suppose, use tables! you can map out by percentage what could happen, and then just roll when you are left fumbling for ideas. Hope this trick wasn't me merely blowing hot air.

Certainly the GM is a big factor in how cinematic the action is.  Based on my player’s comments, cinematic description and encounter design are one of my strengths.  However, that doesn’t mean there can’t be rules that support more cinematic action.  Just for example, Exalted has knockback…often resulting in characters flying all over the battlefield.  Now I wouldn’t say that particular mechanic fits Star Wars, but something similar could be interesting.  I don’t know if anyone remembers the Dueling Rules from old 2nd ED AD&D Combat and Tactics.  I remember having lots of fun just making characters and dueling with my friends back when that book came out.  Looking back, I don’t think that is the best system for duels and certainly not for Star Wars.  However, I think a tool kit of new rules for GMs to create more exciting and climatic duels would be an excellent addition to the game.  Sure, I could create these rules myself, but I have a day job…and I am not as good as the WOTC developers. 

Arcas_Shan wrote:

That would risk making the system too complex, additionally I don't like a few things you have written. It seems, that you always follow on that what Dooku says about the styles (as did the designers of his new miniature). But that should be taken with a ton of salt. Dooku was a master duelist and Form II-user, but you should never forget that he had to run away from an age-old green gnome who used Ataru against him. Obi-Wan blocked him often enough, but he was always of a lower level, so that doesn't necessarily have to do with an inferiority of Soresu.

What I would like to have (if it's not already in another book before that) would be a way for Jedi Knights to make multiple attacks as a standard action without Melee Duelist (can't be said often enough :D ).

As for complexity…maybe.  Depends on your definition.  My thoughts on how to implement this would be a Combat Tactics feat, similar to the Starship Tactics feat.  The feat would have per encounter ground combat maneuvers (for both Force Sensitive and non Force Sensitive), one set of which would be Lightsaber form’s stances.  These would function just like the Attack Patterns from SOTG.  They would provide a couple of benefits and a couple of weaknesses, based on the strengths and weaknesses of the appropriate form.  I don’t think that would add too much complexity, but if you do, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  As for the Makashi vs Shii-Cho, Soresu and Ataru, I guess that just comes down to personal interpretation.  I am aware of all of your points, but I still stick by my interpretation.  Unfortunately this is one of those things where there isn’t enough evidence to make a hard determination.  Obviously someone at WOTC agrees with me…as you already pointed out.  I think it would be great if WOTC could get some official input on the lightsaber forms from Lucas for this book.  Finally get the definitive word on the styles.  If WOTC tried to simulate the various strengths and weaknesses of the individuals styles, and didn’t make Ataru and Soresu weaker against Makashi I wouldn’t complain…but I also wouldn’t complain if they did.  I do agree about multi-attacks as a standard action.   

As a final note, I would rather not see this thread dissolve into everyone trying to argue with me on my opinion.  If you don’t want to see the same stuff in the book as me, great.  I would love to hear what you guys expect out of this book.  My intent is to let the developers know what we as the players want to see to make lightsaber combat more fun, exciting and better represent the source material.  If we get 100 posts and nobody (except me) wants the Jedi/Force Users to have a further advantage in melee combat NOR accurate representation of lightsaber styles strengths and weaknesses NOR additional rules for cinematic and complex lightsaber duels, than I certainly wouldn’t expect WOTC to spend time making them.  However, maybe we can make sure we get some rules dealing with the mental/ Battle Precog side of force user combat and multi-attacks as standard actions for Jedi.  If we have at least that much influence I think this thread will have accomplished its intent.