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1 year ago ::
Jan 16, 2012 - 5:59AM
#51
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2007
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Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but I'm running into a similar problem.
My problem is not so much with Defenses being to high (which they kinda are them being from +20 at level 20 to between +20 to +10 bab depending on the character, bonuses to both notwithstanding), but with how to act against this in the game.
I'll explain myself.
In my current game I have 5 characters, 2 force users, one full Jedi + Jedi Knight, but playing him more consular; a force adept that now is probably going to join the jedi as padawan (scout + scoundrel + soldier with now starting as jedi or force adept), a smuggler that is scoundrel + soldier + gunslinger, an assault droid (full soldier + elite trooper) and a mandalorian warrior (soldier + scout + elite trooper).
The first 3 work fine and I'm having little problems fine-tuning fights for them, since they have a manageable defences (with the smuggler getting a bit ahead of the force users, but the force users having other means to compensate), however, the last two are soldiers with both armor defense talents to make the most out of their armors.
They both use heavy armors and have, at around level 8, ref defenses around 30. The mando is specially problematic since he has evasion, so area attacks are out of the question for him.
What I'm looking for here is suggestions about how to deal with this... I need enemies that can hit them around 25% of the time so to keep things interesting and not make them feel inmortal. I could wip-out special ambushes, heroic enemies, but I like my events and fights to MAKE SENSE and you can only have a weird, super-prepared encounter once in a while.
I've already put in place some ideas, like an NPC class that gets full BAB but still gets no level to defenses or extra HP at level one, so they are squishy but hit a bit better and synergice better with heroic classes, but I would welcome more...
What non-contrived tactics and equipment can my NPCs use to keep my players on their toes without destroying game balance?
Thanks!
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1 year ago ::
Jan 16, 2012 - 10:53AM
#52
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Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but I'm running into a similar problem.
Don't be sorry. If you consider how "dead" the boards often are bring up an old thread that had lots of activity can give you a lot of insight that may otherwise be missed.
My problem is not so much with Defenses being to high (which they kinda are them being from +20 at level 20 to between +20 to +10 bab depending on the character, bonuses to both notwithstanding), but with how to act against this in the game.
...
In my current game I have 5 characters, ..snip.., an assault droid (full soldier + elite trooper) and a mandalorian warrior (soldier + scout + elite trooper).
The first 3 work fine and I'm having little problems fine-tuning fights for them, since they have a manageable defences (with the smuggler getting a bit ahead of the force users, but the force users having other means to compensate), however, the last two are soldiers with both armor defense talents to make the most out of their armors.
They both use heavy armors and have, at around level 8, ref defenses around 30. The mando is specially problematic since he has evasion, so area attacks are out of the question for him.
What I'm looking for here is suggestions about how to deal with this... I need enemies that can hit them around 25% of the time so to keep things interesting and not make them feel inmortal. I could wip-out special ambushes, heroic enemies, but I like my events and fights to MAKE SENSE and you can only have a weird, super-prepared encounter once in a while.
I've already put in place some ideas, like an NPC class that gets full BAB but still gets no level to defenses or extra HP at level one, so they are squishy but hit a bit better and synergice better with heroic classes, but I would welcome more...
What non-contrived tactics and equipment can my NPCs use to keep my players on their toes without destroying game balance?
I guess I want to know how your characters got to the point they are at. For 8th-level characters getting REF 30 is going to require a lot of resources which means they should have problems in other areas. I'm seeing REF = 10 (base) + 8 (heroic level) +2 (class) +6 (IAD + Max DEX) +2 (misc. assuming two feats for this) = 28. This should take a good portion of the character's feats/talent to do although investing more can lead to a slightly higher REF. Now if you're giving out crazy equipement and crazy stats then you've brought this down upon yourself.
I'm not rereading this thread but I assume that many of the ways to improve attacks have been mentioned. Having mooks that make use of Aid Another (and the feat that makes that automatic) can greatly improve attacks. Making liberal use of the non-heroic class can also let you boost NPC BAB with massive increases in CL; a favorite of mine is the CL 4 Elite Trooper who is NH8/Soldier1/EliteTroooper1 which happens to have a +8 BAB but is only HALF the CL of a Soldier 8.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 16, 2012 - 11:25AM
#53
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2007
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I like your idea for the NPC Elite trooper... fits the concept of a soldier in a well equiped and trained military unit.
As for me handling equipment like crazy... hardly, the only one in the party using Mil equipment is the Droid, and it's his Duranium shell (+10 AC, Max Dex + 2). They are also in the middle of a war and he is playing a War-droid, so it fits the setting and party right now also.
His armor is as follows 10 (base) + 8 (level) + 5 (half his armor AC) + 2 (Dex) + 2 (class bonus) + 1 (martial arts I) = 28
Remember I said around 30, not exactly 30, I think the Mando is a bit higher cause he's using Mandalorian Battle armor, which allows him a higher Dex bonus, but I don't have his Character Sheet in front of me.
As you can see, nothing specially complicated or expensive (the 10K for the Duranium shell is hardly money for a level 8 party, not to mention that, again, since they are at war and in one of the sides of the conflict, they do have acces to mil equip that they mostly don't need).
Even if the Duranium shell was taken of the picture and we used a Durastell battle armor for the droid, which is restricted, but not Mil, his AC would still be 28, since he would lose a point of Ref Def from Armor and win one from his Dex, which is 20 right now.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 16, 2012 - 11:46AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2008
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What non-contrived tactics and equipment can my NPCs use to keep my players on their toes without destroying game balance?
Thanks!
Click on my signature under "Compiled files..." and download the file called "My NPC Statblocks..." They have lots of overpowered NPC's that will keep your players in line.
My Star Wars Saga Edition RPG contributions:
Download my NPC statblocks, 4e style - Many NPC's for use in your campaign. Think of it like Threats of the Galaxy 2!
Combat and Skills Summary - A quick reference tool for combat rules and skill applications
Force Power Summary - A quick reference tool for all force powers
Post your NPC and encounter requests here - and a member of the community will create it for you
Saga Edition RPG resource documents & reference tools:
Compiled files of all resource documents & reference tools - NPCs, character sheets, Dawn of Defiance, Force and lightsaber form power cards, Jedi Counseling articles, NPC statblocks, Saga Index to all feats, talents, species, weapons, etc, Star Wars articles and web enhancements
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1 year ago ::
Jan 16, 2012 - 12:05PM
#55
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That armor is a little better than usual because most of the time half armor + MAX Dex ends up at +6 REF although it is possible to get that higher. If you're using the Mandalorian armor from KotOR I'd advise EXTREME caution as it doesn't list prices and can easily be abused if you allow them to keep the stated number of Upgrade slots when you get into S&V's upgrade system. In both of these cases I think you may be looking at armor that is stronger than the baseline. I'll also say that DEX 20 at 8th-level is very high to me even when starting with a "species" that gets +2 DEX; DEX may be the only ability I'd point buy that high but with a score I like I wouldn't be looking at heavy armor anyway.
Now your droid may have the REF Defense but how are its hitpoints? I'll admit I like building armored droids (and effectively getting Juggernaut for free doesn't hurt) but because they don't have CON scores they don't get the extra hitpoints there which can add up to taking an extra hit or two. A droid can get a shield generator but often times even average damage will cause them to drop basically turning them into temporary hitpoints.
I'll give you that REF 28 is "about" 30 but when you're looking at the extremes every point counts. Before looking at modifiers a +8 BAB actually would hit REF 28 on a natural 20 so any attack increases will greatly increase the damage that character takes but REF 30 requires the critical nature of a natural 20 and will still negate the benefit of +2 in attack bonuses that TRIPLE the chance of hitting REF 28. I rarely concentrate on squeezing every +1 I can into something but when you're dealing with the extremes it is important.
I'm glad you like the basic Elite Trooper idea. If you give him a good DEX score (14), perhaps Weapon Focus (although feats may be tight), and have him shooting from point-blank range his +12 attack should hit REF 28 about 20% of the time. Throw in a CL 1 Stormtrooper type to Aid Another and you get a net +14 attack which hits 30% of the time. You could also use them with the squad rules (CWCG 94) which grants +4 attack along with other things although it bumps the CL +2.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 16, 2012 - 1:08PM
#56
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2007
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richterbelmont10 Now that's a juicy list of NPCs! Thank you! I will be giving this a lot of use!!
StevenO, why do you think a DEX of 20 at level 8 is too high? If you begin with a Dex of 16, add a species that adds Dex (like battle droid) and +2 from 8 levels... that's 20.
And that's not really min-maxing a lot, Dex is your main ability score if you're a blaster wielder...
He has 81 HP at this point, I use half HD + 1 as a rule for hitpoints, never liked rolling for them... so not too bad really! Also, he has toughness, which I think it's a solid choice for a battle droid, not to mention it only puts him on par with someone with CON 12.
Another thing that catches my eye... why do you think its armor is stronger than the baseline? It's pretty standard heavy armor...
Also, If I were to create a soldier with the Armored Defense talents in mind, I'd say I'd go for the best all around armor I could get... it's necesary to make use of my talents!
If we take out Mil armors from the question then yes, his armor would probably be 2 points lower... but then again he'd be using light armor, and there's a difference between ligh and heavy, or at least I hope so!
Bottom line, I don't really think there's anything out of the ordinary here... so it's more a problem of the system than of the player...
That said, it seems that better made NPCs are the way to go... however, the problem here is that my other players are not as difficult to hit or have as many hitpoints, so balancing the encounters becomes a problem...
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1 year ago ::
Jan 16, 2012 - 1:58PM
#57
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I don't think DEX 20 at 8th-level if too high but it is very high. I certainly consider any starting value of 17 or 18 as very high (and a couple of these may make a god like array) and a 15 or 16 as a high stat. For a species with a DEX bonus DEX 20 is high. When I view stats I'm really asking for a lot when I point buy something over a 14 because the extra points may be costing me stat modifiers some where else.
When it comes to REF Defense "baseline" armors provide a +6 bonus when combining half the armor's REF and the MAX DEX. Why is that? Just take a look at pg 132 in the SECR and point out just one armor that does better than that before taking other things into account. There is the "baseline" I'm looking at. Going back to the droid armors I'll admit they do a bit more with the D' Battle Armors but they don't improve FORT Defense and are basically part of the droid's structure.
If you go deep into the Armor Specialist talents you will want the armors that maximize. Now part of the problem is that the value of those talents varies based on the armor worn. Improved Armored Defense is generally a GREAT talent unless you have an extremely high DEX score as the benefit from the talent can range from +0 to +6 with the right support; that's a lot of variation in a talent's value although I usually see it as being worth +3 or +4 and getting +5 with an additional feat or talent. A number of other Armor Specialist talents depend greatly upon the armor's stats. A talent that may be "balanced" when using the SECR armors could turn towards "broken" if used with certain splatbook armors.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 16, 2012 - 3:36PM
#58
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2007
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The splatbook armors don't worry me much, since I have ways of controlling them... it's the ones in the basic manual, that apply to all eras, that should be more or less balanded with general game...
With the Mando armors for example, while they have a lot of free upgrade slots, stat wise they are in general on par with the best armor of it's tier... with the exception of the heavy neo-crusader armor, which is really broken.
Thankfully, my game is set hundreds of years after the neo-crusader movement, so it's unavailable to my players :P
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1 year ago ::
Jan 17, 2012 - 6:46AM
#59
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Greetings! Well, probably there are a few problems with Defenses, attack and other level/class based rules. For example. A level 20 "I haven't choose any combat Feat or Talent" (only simple and pistols proficence[class]) Noble with a Ref Def of 31 with Total Defense (+5), will have an awesome Defense of 36. The best (or one of them) fighters in the galaxy, Mace Windu, withour using Powerful Charge, needs to roll a 12 against the "useless in combat" Noble. And if he uses Double Attack he have to score a 19! Sincerelly yes, in my personal opinion, and sorry for always use the "extreme noble 20 case" XD there is a problem with Defenses. More than defenses, with defense system instead. Windu vs Windu, I see no problem with 12,15 or even higher rolls needed to hit. So again, the problem isn't high defense, it's defense system. A big hug to everyone! 
Have you ever tried to smile? If I had to choose one word to describe you, it would be "unorthodox".
Yea - that's pretty much it. Not an insult, of course. :D
Star Wars HEAVY MOD (M&M) Adaptation http://www.mediafire.com/?b2e9e176n9ck9ia
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1 year ago ::
Jan 20, 2012 - 1:40PM
#60
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Date Joined:
Jul 30, 2003
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For Obsidian Razor:
I propose two possibilities:
1.) Mooks are your friend. As StevenO and Richter point out you can take a stormy squad and do great things. first, you can apply the squad template from CWCG (clone wars) and this doubles the HP, and adds 4 to the attack as well as making the attack splash, while at the same time decreasing defense and increasing vulnerability to area attacks. So the storm squad may not be great against the ref def 30 PC's, but they still do 1/2 damage on a miss. O.O Also agaisnt the less intense PC's, a +8 is a respectable to hit for a CL 3 enemy. used in moderation they can be fodder in a fight, and they pay out basically no xp if you care to go by the book, since they are so much lower level than the PC's.
Other options include taking a stormy, adding 2 levels of NH for the coordinate style feat and then start adding heroics to fill in mission gaps. Basically you can quickly make CL3 and CL4 mooks that can auto aid eachother, and add +4 for each aiding attempt. That let's you scale the fire across multiple Ref Def values of a party.
And always, Area of effect is great.
2.) Maybe give all classes (even the NH) full BAB if you are brave. For PC's and NPC's, classes suddenly hit a level of parity in my experience. Pure builds of various base classes become viable, and In my experience Full BAB classes still were taken 70-80% of the time for their superior HP and specific feat options (not better, just specific).
Now, StevenO does not like increasing all BAB to full. And his points are well considered. It may not be the solution for every group. But I find it makes players far more willing to go after the talents and classes they want with one less hurdle to jump to remain effective. And it takes some of the pain out of those high level defense scores.
As an aside, tactics make a huge difference. Flurry + Acrobatic strike on a jedi and cover and melee defense can situationally shift defenses by quite a lot. players should look toward conditional increases and team work to really see their bonuses thrive as well as their own raw capabilities.
*It's worth pointing out that my previous Star Wars group never in 3+ years of gaming EVER took evasion. It was always on the list of talents to take, but some how, even at level 14 they never got aroudn to it. So my group may not be the best representation of the gaming community.*
My Blog, mostly about D&D. I imagine that Majestic Moose plays a more "A team" type game than most of us. By that I mean he allows his players to make tanks out of a backyard playground set since the players have more "fun" that way.
Actually I much prefer The Losers.Spoiler:
Show
When I and my friends sit down we want a game of heroic fantasy. Rare is the moment when I have cried out in a video game or RPG "that's unrealistic." (Unless there is no jump button. Seriously makes me mad, single handedly ruined the N64 zelda series for me, but that's a digression of a digression.)
I mean, we play games with the force in galaxies far, far away, with supernatural horrors, dragons and demi-gods, alternate cosmologies, etc.
Reality and it's effects hold little sway to what makes a Heroic fantasy game fun IMO.
Just repeat after me:
You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake.
You are not how much you've spent on WotC products.
You are not whatever RPG you play.
You are one of tens of thousands of people that spend money on a hobby.
You will not always get what you want
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