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Sartredes
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August 23, 2010 8:53 AM PDT
CORM 1-5 (H1 adventure) is an adventure you should try then.
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Festivus
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August 23, 2010 9:10 AM PDT
I need to remind myself not to use infinitives. Yes, I did play that one and enjoyed it.
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Skerrit
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August 23, 2010 9:40 AM PDT
I think the new item rarity rules will fix some of this.
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Skerrit
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August 23, 2010 9:41 AM PDT
Yes, we are currently working on an Administrators document that spells out what the abilities and responsibilities of all of the campaiagn volunteers are and how those people are reviewed. Once finished, we will post it for all to see, just like the
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Festivus
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August 23, 2010 1:26 PM PDT
As I have mentioned here and there, I very much look forward to the "reboot" of LFR, and really do hope it's a good fit for me.
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teacha
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August 23, 2010 3:19 PM PDT
Things that I want to see include follow up to dangling plot threads from year 1 and year 2, real uses for story rewards other than this guy/girl helps in skill challenge, place magic item bundles which will have definite uses in later area adventure
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Madfox11
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August 24, 2010 5:39 AM PDT
If you ask whether or not we are going to remove the minimum of 2 combat rule in the writing guidelines: unlikely. The generic group wants those fights.Of course, I still love to ask Imaginaryfriend about the time where his group was being slaughtere
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imaginaryfriend
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August 24, 2010 6:27 AM PDT
Yeah I noted you take great pleasure in reminding me.. To be clear, I was in fact DM-ing the table and they were in dire straits when the particular player posed that question. I may have overreacted a little, but I still maintain some fire was war
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JohnduBois
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August 24, 2010 6:29 AM PDT
Yeah I noted you take great pleasure in reminding me.. To be clear, I was in fact DM-ing the table and they were in dire straits when the particular player posed that question. I may have overreacted a little, but I still maintain some fire was war
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aeryche
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August 24, 2010 6:45 AM PDT
honestly, i play in a group that bounces about 20 people around tables. we've played together for a year or more, and have played several mods multiple times each (different characters). even though we know how the encounters are made, by using the +
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CdrcJsn
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August 24, 2010 10:56 AM PDT
Yeah, I think this is more of a matter about adapting player habits rather than changing game rules.The weak monster damage for paragon and above has been fixed in MM3 and mods will surely take that into account from now on.At one of the local game s
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Sithobi1
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August 24, 2010 4:32 PM PDT
Oh, where was that?
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Painlord
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August 25, 2010 2:16 PM PDT
Madfox/Skerrit-- I hope that when the document that outlines the powers/responsibilities/whatever is released we can go back over statements like this. While I believe and understand that some people lurve the fighting, I don't know why there n
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Surgebuster
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August 25, 2010 2:34 PM PDT
Even in the Madhouse, there were combat elements, even if there was no true combat.In any case, combat represents approximately 75% of the game content (per a WotC representative) and there truly is an expectation of combat in an adventure by playe
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Painlord
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August 25, 2010 7:27 PM PDT
Mr. Buster--See? This is the kind of discussion we should have with the community rather than accepting an Admin or WotC representative fiat. I just want a discussion after we figure out what we can and can't do before we re-boot this campaig
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Surgebuster
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August 25, 2010 8:23 PM PDT
I think the community has had and continues to have a huge influence on the campaign to date. I would imagine the dramatically increased presence of the Globals (myself, skerrit, madfox11 and soccerref73) on the both the LFR community forums and here
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jsaint
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August 25, 2010 9:25 PM PDT
i would really like to see the difficulty of encounters addressed. this does not need to be a lowest common denominator enterprise, do the modules "need" to be so easy? i realize that there are some that are too hard out there, but nearly all of
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Madfox11
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August 26, 2010 3:40 AM PDT
Ask your DM to boost the challenge. Sorry, but for each player complaining things are too easy, there are two saying it is perfect and one that says it is too hard. In my experience increasing the challenge is a lot easier, and less obvious, then dow
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dkay807
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August 26, 2010 6:02 AM PDT
Actually, Mr. Frey is closer than you might think. He's moving to Boston next month and is currently helping me with ideas for the Epic Plotline....oh and uh, yeah, combats are important. I'd never write a module without at least two per round. I've
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bgibbons
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August 26, 2010 9:13 AM PDT
I'm not sure if I'd call When Dragons Die insane, but the tactics in the first combat you reference did leave a bad taste in my mouth.Spoiler:
Show
Minions with stated tactics that they will attack a creature who will resist all of their damag
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Mirtek
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August 26, 2010 10:12 AM PDT
I say yes, they need to be easy. If LFR is meant for convention than the difficulty should be aimed at 4-6 random strangers who don't know each other's powers or tactics and might even lack some roles altogether.I also deny that LFR is too easy. I fo
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Joshua_Randall
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August 26, 2010 12:10 PM PDT
I think I'm going to get banned for slow-motion spamming if I keep posting this every so often, but:Please do not turn LFR into an arms race. If a certain subset of players needs to feel more manly, there are ways they can work with their DM to do th
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battles14
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August 26, 2010 1:02 PM PDT
+1It's important to take a step back when judging the challenge of LFR mods. The majority of people who post on these boards are sophisticated D&D players who have experience making effective characters (even, dare I say, broken ones). A significant
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jsaint
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August 26, 2010 2:55 PM PDT
why are the people who want harder mods in the wrong? or put differently, why do we cater to the people who want easier games instead of catering to those who want harder games?rather than artificially increasing the challenge of module that was ea
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Surgebuster
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August 26, 2010 3:40 PM PDT
Because, as Madfox11 already explained, it is much easier for a DM to scale the challenge of an encounter up, rather than down. Why? Because the way the game is designed makes the line between difficult and lethal very fine and once you overstep the
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kenobi65
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August 26, 2010 6:48 PM PDT
If what you want proves to be a minority viewpoint, or if delivering what you want seriously damages the enjoyment of a large number of other players, that's what makes it less important.
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Dodecahedron
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August 27, 2010 1:31 AM PDT
I am wondering if we can remove the requirement to use Dungeon Tiles.I know some LG authors who have decided not to write for LFR becausethey are being forced to utilize Dungeon Tiles for all of their encounters.
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Peter_Seckler
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August 27, 2010 6:09 AM PDT
Well, anyhow: I agree with Mirtek and Joshua Randall. LFR should remain at a standard level of difficulty. And really that's not "easy"- PCs are still going to get hit and bloodied with regularity, and even killed, but at least the battles won't take
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JohnduBois
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August 27, 2010 6:38 AM PDT
If you saw some of the maps I had to edit and rewrite during the LG days, you would understand why authors now use Dungeon Tiles. I'm talking combat maps with no gridlines, maps with rivers with no way to tell which is which, and the like.
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Dayffd
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August 27, 2010 8:52 AM PDT
As an organizer and DM of LFR, I prefer the map tiles. It provides something that has a high quality look and when I am running in an open public location (i.e. Game Store or mixed convention) they catch the eye of people going by. I have success
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Painlord
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August 27, 2010 9:22 AM PDT
Surgebuster/Skerrit--Admittedly, I've been trying to be patient as I've waited for a public posting of what the new agreement between the new LFR and WotC will be. I have been asking about this ever since this needed process was started and I'm r
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Skerrit
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August 27, 2010 11:51 AM PDT
It is somewhat correct. Our Writers Guidelines and Admin Document will cover some of what you want for number one, though I am not sure it will be as extensive as many posters desire (covering absolutely every contingency on what can and canno
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Painlord
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August 27, 2010 12:22 PM PDT
Thank you.Excellent. Then I'll go back to my near-silent vigil and await the release. I understand that the proposal on some items has been decided (story areas, # adventures, positions...), but still wonder what is covered in the 'etc.', but I s
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Mirtek
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August 27, 2010 2:59 PM PDT
If what you want proves to be a minority viewpoint, or if delivering what you want seriously damages the enjoyment of a large number of other players, that's what makes it less important.[/quote]Annother reason is that if it's too easy for the partic
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-Aribeth-
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August 27, 2010 5:29 PM PDT
When LFR gets rebooted, will there be a mechanism that recognizes the accomplishments and skills of the better players?Currently, as I perceive this campaign to be, a novice player can achieve the same accolades / story awards as the veteran / more s
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Mirtek
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August 28, 2010 2:54 AM PDT
I think post 22 here answers that
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-Aribeth-
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August 28, 2010 10:06 AM PDT
Since I am a short bus kid.... please elaborate why post 22 answers my question.Thanks
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Mommy_was_an_Orc
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August 28, 2010 9:27 PM PDT
I get comments all the time about how my characters or I do at the table. I'm extremely team-oriented in play, willing to play a face(and roleplay diplomacy or lie through my teeth without funny voices), know what I'm doing tactically, and I play off
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battles14
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August 29, 2010 2:23 AM PDT
Kudos to Mommy on the tremendous post.Aribeth, I understand your sentiment, but it might be worth taking a step back and re-reading your first post. D&D isn't about having the most skills (whatever that means) or getting more recognition or any of th
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Keith53
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August 29, 2010 6:22 AM PDT
LFR is focused on creating fun for the players; yes, every player regardless of skill level potentially can have the same amount of fun and that is the way it should be. This is a game, not a competition.WotC D&D Organized Play does offer some tea
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imaginaryfriend
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August 30, 2010 4:19 AM PDT
Such a mechanism would require someone deciding who those better players are. Be it DM, Author, Admin, this will always lead to the situation where someone feels hard done by. I can hear it already; "I did not get the badge of awesomeness, the DM sc
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smerwin29
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August 30, 2010 5:15 AM PDT
The best player is the one who does not ask for recognition that he or she is the best player.
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Dragon9
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August 30, 2010 5:51 AM PDT
One just has to look at the outcry of players who felt cheated because they couldn't go to conventions and get the exclusive race creation cards like Orc, Gnome, Shadar-Kai, etc. And that wasn't even tied to someone arbitrarily deciding "who the bes
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Alphastream1
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August 30, 2010 12:48 PM PDT
On difficulty: I think the key here is having good information on scaling the encounter that DMs can use. For example, when I prep with my other judges for D&D Encounters, we come up with 2-3 changes they can use to scale the encounter difficulty. Th
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lorika
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August 30, 2010 1:17 PM PDT
Ask your DM to boost the challenge. Sorry, but for each player complaining things are too easy, there are two saying it is perfect and one that says it is too hard. In my experience increasing the challenge is a lot easier, and less obvious, then dow
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tirianmal
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August 30, 2010 3:11 PM PDT
I guess I'm surprised that people think it's easier for the DM to make a combat more challenging than it is to make it easier. I would think it'd be the opposite. I don't have tons of DMing experience, but it seems that it'd be much easier for t
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-Aribeth-
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August 30, 2010 5:11 PM PDT
You are a much better person than me because you are leading me to believe that it would not bother you that those players that you consider as the worst players have the same rewards, levels, loot as your characters. It also leads me to believe th
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battles14
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August 30, 2010 7:28 PM PDT
Consider the question the other way...Why does it bother you that so-called "worst" players get the same rewards and levels as your characters do? I mean, it's not really hurting you. It seems like what you're looking for is to everyone you play wi
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Madfox11
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August 31, 2010 1:59 AM PDT
Considering the complaints on the more difficult adventures on these boards and other locations: yes, that is exactly the worry. As for upgrading difficulty, that is usually not that hard. The easiest and often most effective method for me is changin
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lorika
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August 31, 2010 5:31 AM PDT
Considering the complaints on the more difficult adventures on these boards and other locations: yes, that is exactly the worry. As for upgrading difficulty, that is usually not that hard. The easiest and often most effective method for me is changin
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-Aribeth-
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August 31, 2010 5:44 AM PDT
Consider the question the other way...Why does it bother you that so-called "worst" players get the same rewards and levels as your characters do? I mean, it's not really hurting you. It seems like what you're looking for is to everyone you play wi
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Dragon9
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August 31, 2010 5:51 AM PDT
You are a much better person than me because you are leading me to believe that it would not bother you that those players that you consider as the worst players have the same rewards, levels, loot as your characters. It also leads me to believe th
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Mommy_was_an_Orc
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August 31, 2010 5:57 AM PDT
But what if Bob who plays the crappy rogue is also the crappy co-worker? ;)
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Mommy_was_an_Orc
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August 31, 2010 5:59 AM PDT
There are a couple of issues:The DMs who don't adjust at all, regardless of what the table is doing. They're out there - the harder the base challenge of the mod, the more likely they TPK tables. Reinforcements. These are actually pretty easy to modu
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JohnduBois
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August 31, 2010 6:53 AM PDT
Consider the question the other way...Why does it bother you that so-called "worst" players get the same rewards and levels as your characters do? I mean, it's not really hurting you. It seems like what you're looking for is to everyone you play wi
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-Aribeth-
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August 31, 2010 7:16 AM PDT
Consider the question the other way...Why does it bother you that so-called "worst" players get the same rewards and levels as your characters do? I mean, it's not really hurting you. It seems like what you're looking for is to everyone you play wi
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lorika
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August 31, 2010 7:40 AM PDT
There are, of course, plenty of non-tangible rewards and/or punishments (mainly social) based on the level of player skill. If a player is truly terrible, people will simply stop playing with them. Or maybe the cleric will choose to heal the in
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-Aribeth-
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August 31, 2010 8:15 AM PDT
My comments are no where near about proving if you are or are not a good player.You are either a good player or notThis is about the LFR Welfare System.I can be a slacker and hook up with some good players and not even bother reading the rules or my
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Keithric
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August 31, 2010 9:03 AM PDT
For clarity - Aribeth, are you suggesting that at a table of 6 players who play a difficult module, if one of them sucks, that person should get less treasure?Or are you saying that in the hypothetical case where there are two tables. One has lots of
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lorika
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August 31, 2010 9:05 AM PDT
But based on your initial post, that sounds exactly like what you are talking about:(Emphasis added by me.)In LFR, as in any human social activity, there is already an inherent social rewards system built in to recognize accomplishments. Personally
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Skerrit
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August 31, 2010 9:08 AM PDT
Well we are changing both the xp & gp systems for LFR, though I'm not entirely sure it will address your desire of rewarding super-awesome players and punish those who suck. That said, I think we are going to see more meaningful Story Awards i
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Festivus
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August 31, 2010 9:12 AM PDT
I don't care about if the other players are poor performers (or whatever your criteria is), as long as the rewards are the same for everyone it's fine with me... it really doesn't matter. I think having rewards for the "best" player is a really bad
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-Aribeth-
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August 31, 2010 9:47 AM PDT
Keithric,To be clear, I AM NOT suggesting any solution at the moment.I am identifying an issue in LFR that bothers me and wondered if the Leadership sees the issue as well and if they are going to address said issue.If you are asking me what the Lead
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Koldoon
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August 31, 2010 10:01 AM PDT
And what makes the best player best? There are many ways to play the game... so is a poorly optimized character that is memorable and role-played well bad? Is a player who knows the PH perfectly but didn't invest in 2 or 3 or keep track of the er
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-Aribeth-
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August 31, 2010 10:23 AM PDT
Well we are changing both the xp & gp systems for LFR, though I'm not entirely sure it will address your desire of rewarding super-awesome players and punish those who suck. That said, I think we are going to see more meaningful Story Awards i
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Mirtek
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August 31, 2010 10:54 AM PDT
Yeah, what's wrong with that?You can also be a slacker and hook up with some other slackers and not even bother reading the rules or my powers and I can still get full rewards, EXP and loot delivered on a silver platter because the DM sees how bad y
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Festivus
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August 31, 2010 11:27 AM PDT
I only refuse to play with jerks. If you aren't good at D&D at 11th level, I'll still play with you, and even help you if you ask... but part of that help is going to be the suggestion that next time they might want to try a lower level table until
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lorika
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August 31, 2010 11:54 AM PDT
FYI - this happens ALL THE TIME in the real world. There are people that get promoted over you even though you worked harder. There are people that have the same amount of money as you because they stole it or because they conned it out of frien
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Alphastream1
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August 31, 2010 11:56 AM PDT
Is there an RPG (either in and of itself or in its organized play program) that works differently?What are some ways you could reward proficiency without it seeming like an elitist construct that favors those with a lot of time to play?
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Corwynn
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August 31, 2010 12:08 PM PDT
I don't really get the concern myself.1. This is a group (team) game, not a solo game. You succeed by how well your group does overall.2. The group is expected to win combats. The DM is not your adversary. In fact, the DM will even ramp up or
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imaginaryfriend
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August 31, 2010 2:01 PM PDT
As the topic rages I see a lot of disagreement on what constitutes better players, coming back to the same point. There is no consensus and there wont be..As an illustration I personally get quite annoyed at the mention of people with optimized char
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bgibbons
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August 31, 2010 2:13 PM PDT
I'm a believer that DME needs a complete overhaul, as the instructions given in modules are so incomplete at this point as to be misleading.Beyond that, from day one, I can't say I understand the need for DME to adjust combat difficulty.You don't nee
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Alphastream1
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August 31, 2010 2:40 PM PDT
There are a ton of DMs that believe the module must be run as written. D&D Encounters is proof of this. Intro program designed to bring in players and tons of DMs TPKd their tables week after week. Similarly, a lot of the adventure reviews on these f
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Dragon9
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August 31, 2010 2:54 PM PDT
An RPG is a game of cooperative storytelling. Not how ub3r l33T Ur t0oN R0xX0rs and neither is it about the phat lewtz or pwning n00bs. Despite the lame comparisons from some people, D&D is not WoW. You shouldn't play it like it is.
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Dodecahedron
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September 1, 2010 2:17 AM PDT
Well we are changing both the xp & gp systems for LFR, though I'm not entirely sure it will address your desire of rewarding super-awesome players and punish those who suck. That said, I think we are going to see more meaningful Story Awards i
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lorika
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September 3, 2010 6:18 AM PDT
I wanted to point out that giving "better/more skilled players" greater rewards than "worse/less skilled players" will only widen the gap between the two groups. Let's say, for example, that there is a group of 1st level characters playing togeth
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battles14
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September 3, 2010 10:00 PM PDT
Man, we're still talking about this? I'm glad to see that the original suggestion has been thoroughly trounced.
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Sans_Serif
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September 4, 2010 11:33 AM PDT
If we're going to improve LFR, how about this:there's got to be a way to adjust LFR games so they actually do fit in that 4 hour time slot. It's as though we're punished for advancing to paragon tier with more grinding.
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battles14
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September 4, 2010 9:55 PM PDT
Yeah, that's been one of my biggest problems with paragon. There's just no way to get it done on time without calling the fights early.I played CORE 2-8 during a home game last week. We started at 2:30, and weren't done with the first fight until 6.
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jsaint
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September 5, 2010 11:29 PM PDT
you are glad to see that the original suggestion of fixing the most egregious game balance problems has been trounced?!?
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battles14
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September 6, 2010 7:59 AM PDT
Your original suggestion is basically to pick and choose which D&D rules we follow in LFR, and even though I do think that some things cause game problems, you know I can't agree with that. Not only does it create a game that's distinct from D&D, but
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kenobi65
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September 6, 2010 12:28 PM PDT
In short: you have a particular view of what works and doesn't work in 4E (which is perfectly cool). What's become clear as this thread has developed is that a lot of other posters don't share your view on what "needs to be fixed". It's great if
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Madfox11
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September 10, 2010 1:50 PM PDT
While there are definitely hard to finish adventures out there, both your DM and you as a player have a lot of influence on this. For example, when I run a LFR game, I tend to predraw the battlemaps, select miniatures and put them into seperate plast
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aljergensen
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September 10, 2010 3:27 PM PDT
While there are definitely hard to finish adventures out there, both your DM and you as a player have a lot of influence on this. For example, when I run a LFR game, I tend to predraw the battlemaps, select miniatures and put them into seperate plast
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Sans_Serif
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September 10, 2010 8:53 PM PDT
oh sure. I pre-draw maps, get minis out, take the highlighter to the mod to point out stuff. I call fights.Even then, LFR breaks down at paragon.
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KarmaInferno
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September 11, 2010 12:52 AM PDT
Players do not alpha-strike, powergame, min-max, or optimize merely because this or that rules option allows them to do so.Players do these things BECAUSE THEY WANT TO.In any given playerbase, you will ALWAYS have a significant percentage that engage
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wyrdlyng
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September 12, 2010 1:09 PM PDT
One change I'd really really love to see is not allowing background aside from Forgotten Realms and general. I am so tired of seeing people with Scales of War's "Auspicious Birth" or "Born Under a Bad Sign" as their chosen Background effect. This wou
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JohnduBois
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September 12, 2010 3:41 PM PDT
Can you give some specific examples of what you mean by redoing to Realms backgrounds to better fit the story areas?
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Dragon9
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September 13, 2010 6:23 AM PDT
Except that the SoW backgrouds are general and can apply to any setting (which is fitting since the SoW AP was written to be able to be dropped into any campaign).
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wyrdlyng
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September 13, 2010 3:52 PM PDT
@Dragon9But the SoW aren't "general" they're from an issue of Dragon magazine, not the PHBs like the others are. And they're not in balance with the actual general backgrounds from the PHBs. And the fact that just about every non-Con character I've s
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Mirtek
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September 14, 2010 1:31 PM PDT
But only slightly. Essentially they give the equivalent of one feat (toughness) to most people (except for the most extreme cases possible, but even they cap at +20 hp from the background) while the other feats almost give the equivalent of another f
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wyrdlyng
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September 14, 2010 2:10 PM PDT
In most LFR games I've been involved in people already have high enough skill ratings in their strong fields to not care about a small bump. And with DCs being low enough for most skill challenges it usually isn't an issue even in their weak areas.
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Skerrit
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September 14, 2010 2:57 PM PDT
I suspect with the skill challenge DCs being raised again, that those skill bonuses will become much more valuable.
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JohnduBois
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September 14, 2010 6:54 PM PDT
What makes the current FR regional background less than suitable for that task? I'm not saying that I think it's a bad idea; I just don't see a reason to make, say, a new Netheril background unless there's a reason that the current Netheril backgroun
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haferka
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September 15, 2010 8:37 AM PDT
I vote AGAINST this guy... :)I actually prefer the multiple backgrounds.. only 1 benifit system. And honestly.. lfr is still trying to promote ALL the 4e products WotC sells.
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Dragon9
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September 15, 2010 2:58 PM PDT
Their location of publication (outside of a setting book like the FRPG, DSCG or the EPG) is irrelevaqnt to whether they are general or not. They aren't setting specific. They are general. Just because they don't give the same language or skill
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-Bander
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November 10, 2010 9:09 AM PST
In regard to meaningful Story Awards... Don't accept mods that don't have story awards. Every module should have Story Awards! I want my heroes to make a difference in the game world, thus the appeal of playing in an "Living" campaign. If a module
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BRJN
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November 26, 2010 6:21 PM PST
Um, because1) LFR has to respond to public opinion taken as an aggregate, and2) there are more of us than there are of youperhaps?
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BRJN
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November 26, 2010 6:43 PM PST
You done good and should be complemented. WELL DONE. In a similar vein, I've noticed that if my StarLock becomes the party's face then I become the unofficial small-l leader. I try to involve the rest of the group - Gondolin may be a social whiz bu
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BRJN
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November 26, 2010 7:15 PM PST
When I played ADCP 2-1H I was added to a pre-existing group of players. They probably thought I was a crazy loon after charging into melee wearing leather armor and burning through almost all my healing surges in the first fight. (I did learn some
