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3 years ago ::
Aug 23, 2010 - 9:10AM
#31
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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It's a good thing you put "evil" in quotes up there because none of the races you mentioned, are evil in 4E. Many of their members might be, and many of their particular civilizations might be run by evil gods, dictators, etc. But the individuals themselves aren't forced to be evil.
However, making the choice (or failing to change the choice) of worshipping an evil god is a different animal altogether.
So, no, I don't think it is hypocritical. I find it both useful and helpful to keep the actual evil creatures out of the party.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 23, 2010 - 9:46AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Mar 17, 2005
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Why is my character in an adventuring party with a Drow, Gnoll, or Revanant.
Ya, unfortunately the last two were actually mistakes of miscommunication between the Dragon folks and the designers (though reformed drow are pretty much a part of FR now), and I don't think undead or gnoll PCs were ever envisioned. Note that in some adventures there have been some role-playing penalties for playing certain races, as you would expect.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 23, 2010 - 10:06AM
#33
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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Now I am a noted cynic but I cant escape the impression that were not the evil deities blessed with some of the more interesting feats/divine boons/powers/etc. this would be much less of an issue.
Aside from that I would think that some of the reactions to this issue perfectly illustrate why it would have a disruptive impact in LFR. Do we really need to give people more ways to give themselves or others excuses to break Wheaton's Law?
As is LFR has enough room to work with if you want to roleplay a person of dubious moral fiber and equal deistic allegiance.
To DME, or not to DME: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous powergaming, Or to take arms against a sea of Munchkins, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;No more;
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3 years ago ::
Aug 23, 2010 - 10:45AM
#34
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I understand your opinion of why Evil Deities should be allowed. But I seen problems with the concept. I wish to retort some of your reasons:
* Greater freedom for players, obviously. I'm sure there's someone else out there who wants to play an evil deity worshipper.
The problem with that this freedom can be interpreted by the player as needed to defending their gods actions and wishes, even if unaligned.
In a few RPGA game I've played the priest of evil deties are the protaganists.
Imagine a game where a priest of Bane is going to sacrifice an innocent for religious reasons. Do you really want your partys Rogue to turn to the party and say:
"Sorry guys but I'm going with my religious beliefs here!" As he drives his daggers into the Wizard's back.
* The alignment restrictions are good enough. I'm not calling for a repeal of them. Therefore, Evil and Chaotic Evil PCs are still not allowed, but this does allow for Unaligned worshippers of evil deities.
Not every divine class is required to take their god's alignment, but others do. This would create restrictions on certian divine classes for RPGA players while not on others.
* Drow can worship Lolth. Even if their racial deity is a complete psychopath, it seems a bit odd to me that no Drow adventurer can ever worship Lolth.
As stated above, Drow characters who worship Lolth would usually go with the Drow ways which can be cruel and terrible. This would also put them at war with potential party members in RPGA events.
* Players will use the opportunity as an excuse to be dicks. Forgive me for saying so, but I'm pretty sure those players are going to be dicks anyway.
Players will do what they do however with an evil god it opens the door for truly villanious and criminal activity that could get an entire party killed before an adventure starts. Also certian heroic NPCs may not work with players with Evil Dieties.
* There is no acceptable reason for an adventurer to follow an evil deity. Honestly, this bothers the heck out of me. Not only does it completely discount the notion of the lapsed Catholic (and if anyone's going to miss weekly prayers, it would be an adventurer), but it implies that someone who follows an evil deity is incapapble of acting heroically, even if their alignment is Unaligned. That last part is seriously concerning to me.
You are correct, following an evil deity does not imply that such a character will do something heroic. But such Dieties usually don't suggest or reinforce such activities in their teachings. This would make getting such a character into a game even more difficult.
* Evil deities should be reserved for NPCs. Let's be honest here: "NPCs" means "enemies." If I was uncomfortable with the notion that no evil-deity-worshipping PC could ever be heroic, I'm really uncomfortable with the notion that every follower of X d eitydeserves to be the enemy of what we're going to call heroes. And the associated one, that enemies of good deities will never do anything to call heroes down on them.
The ones you fight are enemies this is true. But I don't agree that all NPCs are enemies. In most of the RPGA games there is at least one NPC that instigates the adventure so they would be considered an ally. At least one other to get information or aid from so they would be potential allies.
For the most part D&D games espically RPGA games are black and white in design. Players are the good guys and the people they battle are the bad guys. It's good vs evil, not evil vs. evil for good vs. good.
Those are just a few points like I said I understand your opinion I just don't agree with it.
Take care!
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3 years ago ::
Aug 23, 2010 - 11:40AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2008
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One thing I was shocked to read about in the original Forgotten Realms Adventures (Jeff Grubb, the hardback that moved the Realms from 1e to 2e) was that certain deities like Loviatar had good-aligned worshippers, at least at one point.
Worshipers had no restrictions (though they would be extremely rare and lone exceptions to the rule). But in 2E there was a strict "must be within one alignment away" for the divine classes.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 23, 2010 - 11:41AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2008
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Now I am a noted cynic but I cant escape the impression that were not the evil deities blessed with some of the more interesting feats/divine boons/powers/etc. this would be much less of an issue.
You mean like the new Winning Races: Drow article that just introduced a very nice weapon that can only be used by people that venerate Lolth? 
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3 years ago ::
Aug 23, 2010 - 1:01PM
#37
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Now I am a noted cynic but I cant escape the impression that were not the evil deities blessed with some of the more interesting feats/divine boons/powers/etc. this would be much less of an issue.
Really? How many are there? 5? 6? AFAIK the evil deities so far stand out by their lack of deity-specific elements.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 24, 2010 - 10:02AM
#38
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Ultimately, the problem with playing a "evil" race is the same problem as playing a character that worships a "evil" deity. I find it hypocritical that worshipping an evil god is forbidden because it causes problems at a table but playing an evil race is permitted because it expands role-playing opportunities.
But there's a difference between playing an outcast from a traditionally evil race, and actively worshipping an evil god.
When I play my gnoll (which I created mostly so I had an excuse to talk like Scoobie-Doo) he fights his gnollish cousins just as hard as anyone else. He knows how evil and nasty they can be, he's chosen to take a different path. He has chosen to not let his race decide his destiny, or his alignment.
I can see interesting roll play opportunities playing a drow that used to worship Llolth, but actively woship? Not so much. As someone else pointed out - if a cleric of Bane was about to sacrifice an innocent victim, why would a fellow worshipper of Bane stop them? Why would a cleric of Torm ever trust anyone who openly worships Bane?
A significant percentage of people run characters that would have great difficulty with someone actively worshipping an evil deity. That alone is reason not to allow it. Whether we should have allowed gnolls or other traditionally evil races is irrelevant because we can't undo that decision.
Allen.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2010 - 8:54PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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But the whole idea behind a patron deity is that you choose the deity that you can most associate and relate with.
I completely disagree with this notion. That may be one reason why one chooses a patron deity, but it's certainly not the only one.
I read that text as saying that a character might not follow the good/evil path of a deity while worshipping them. Which means that a narcissist might worship Asmodeus, a soldier Bane, an orc (or half-orc) Gruumsh, a drow Lolth, a dragonborn Tiamat, a jailor or ex-jailor Torog, or an assassin Zehir, and not be evil. Anyone worshipping Vecna would probably never tell anyone that ever anyway.
Tharizdun is a little hard to defend, but then, anyone who worships him is supposed to be totally insane anyway.
There isn't anything about any of these Gods (ignoring Torog and Tharizdun since they don't exist int he FR) that would inspire a heroic character. Gods of sin, tyrrany, savagery, greed... while you may disagree with the notion, the only reason someone would take one of these gods as a patron deity is because they see somethign in the deity that speaks to them personally. We're not talking about polytheistic practices where someone offers a prayer to a god in a situation because they don't want to get shipwrecked or suffer a cave in. We're talkign full out worship. Who's goign to collect your soul when you die? Did you follow the gods tenents enough to be rewarded with an afterlife? If not, then why were you dedicating your worship to the deity in the first place? No offense, but the notion of "this gives player's more freedom" is total bunk. If you can make an interesting PC whose story works with the worship of an evil deity then you can just as easily make an interesting PC whose story works with the worship of a non-evil deity. Evil deities end up being crutches.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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3 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2010 - 1:23PM
#40
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I am not sure letting people play “evil” races is hypocritical. What defines a hero? Their actions or what they look like? For me, the race does not necessarily define a character’s actions as much as that character’s beliefs (for example what deity they venerate). In fact playing against archetype can be a great basis for a character. I for example have a gnoll character who worships Selûne, my gnoll is good aligned and struggles against his animalistic nature. In my opinion that would be quite different if my gnoll character worshiped Yeenoghu (which would not be appropriate for a hero in my opinion). Now there are always interesting exceptions (Kira Nenthyn for example) but leaving those options open to players could be asking for trouble. Creating a heroic Drow is easier in my opinion than creating a heroic worshiper of Lolth. Not to say that it can’t be done (players are quite creative).
Now, I think I may have played my gnoll with SCRu’s racist eladrin (is that you Aeronel (sp?) and there is great role-play material to be had there. And while a very arrogant and racist Eladrin creates some tense table situations, that particular Eladrin seems to have a good heart despite their significant character flaws. If that Eladrin was also a worshiper of Bane I think their beliefs would prevent him from acting in a heroic manner.
So, I don’t think that a race that typically acts evil is the same as the worshiper of a typically evil god. If you remove a member from the “evil” race’s society and re-educate them to act heroically they are still physically that race, even if they now behave differently. If you remove a worshiper of an evil god and convince them to follow the ways of goodness, they will probably not be a worshiper of that deity any more (always exceptions yes…but generally).
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