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3 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2010 - 9:36AM
#101
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Look, as gamers, we all want a chance to use our cool powers/tricks. I think that is what the OP is saying. If it is clearly an easy fight, hold back just a little(you dont have to daily, AP and daily again).
Just have a little empathy and let other people participate in the fight. Which from some of these posts, I suppose it is asking too much. Gamers aren't known to be considerate of one another, and this kinda proves it.
How do you -- in the first round of combat before many monsters have gone (hence, Alphastrike) -- that the fight is "clearly an easy fight?" Also, you might not know the initiative order. So, sure if you knew the fight was easy and knew that 2 other PCs were going next, it could make sense to not action point, etc. But what if you don't finish him off and then he goes and subjects the table to the AOE power of doom stun, dominate, etc. effect?? In real time, assuming you haven't read the mod, you just don't know how easy the fight is going to be or just how dangerous the monsters are (if they haven't gone). That's why it makes sense to eliminate the threat if you can.
Further, I really think being considerate of other players is totally unrelated to alphastriking. Most of being considerate has to do with player to player behavior rather than character to character. To the extent being considerate does have to do with actual character behavior, I can think of more important things to focus on, such as: don't run ahead of the leader and expect him to come rescue you; don't hog all the party resources; coordinate with the controller about positioning; don't put down a zone that hinders sight if the party would be better off without it, etc., etc.
Daren
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3 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2010 - 9:54AM
#102
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How do you -- in the first round of combat before many monsters have gone (hence, Alphastrike) -- that the fight is "clearly an easy fight?" Also, you might not know the initiative order. So, sure if you knew the fight was easy and knew that 2 other PCs were going next, it could make sense to not action point, etc. But what if you don't finish him off and then he goes and subjects the table to the AOE power of doom stun, dominate, etc. effect?? In real time, assuming you haven't read the mod, you just don't know how easy the fight is going to be or just how dangerous the monsters are (if they haven't gone). That's why it makes sense to eliminate the threat if you can.
Knowledge monster checks.
Lori Anderson
WotC Freelancer, LFR author
@LittleLorika
CALI3-3 The Agony of Almraiven (co-author)
NETH4-1 Containing Shadow (co-author)
CALI4-1 Plain of Stone Spiders (author)
QUES4-1 Liberation (co-author)
EPIC5-1 Plaguewrought Prism (co-author)
TotalCon: http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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3 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2010 - 10:07AM
#103
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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I disagree, this is about being considerate. Yes alpha striking is effective, and is appropriate at times. No one is saying the people should never alphastrike. Im just saying that, when you see a solo brute and some minions, dont banish/sleep the brute forever so other PCs dont get the chance to do something meaningful. A lot of people here have the used the excuse of "I wanna kill it before it stuns/dazes/kills me". While that can happen, I doubt it will happen every single fight, especially in LFR. Like when your replaying a mod, where you know what monsters your fighting(thus know how easy the fights are), hold back so everyone can wail on the encounter. Sure it makes sense to eliminate the threat if you can. It also makes sense that other people want to play too and it isnt just about your PC at the table(no matter how bad ass you are).
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3 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2010 - 10:36AM
#104
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2006
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Knowledge monster checks.
I wonder how revealing monster knowlege checks at the end of the first round would effect the alphastrike practice? It would require a change to the game rules but, the "in-game" reasoning would be that you need to see the creature act a little before you can understand and properly identify it. Perhaps, the DC might effect how long it takes to identify the creature.
I am sure it would have little effect on most hard-core replayers but, might cause a few players to hold back on their top-shelf attacks for a round.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2010 - 11:25AM
#105
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2006
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The optimizer is not inherently wrong.
The non-optimizer is not "better", in an ethical sense.
D&D is a "roleplaying game". That has several components, one of which is "playing a role" and the other is "playing a game". The optimizer has decided to focus on one aspect to the detriment of the other. That, to me, really is inherently wrong. It is out of balance with the purpose of the game. It would be the same as a player who created a combat-incapable roleplaying character. It is inherently wrong to ignore one aspect of the game.
Now, I know that all the optimizers reading this thread will immediately chime in and say "but I have an *in-character* reason for multiclassing and taking RRoT" or "the two are completely different; I can optimize a character and speak in a funny voice! See! I do both!", but frankly, I've played across three decades and multiple systems, and It Just Ain't So. Feel free to disagree -- I'm not going to respond -- but in my lengthy experience, the mst fun is had by tables of non-optimal characters and a GM who respects that non-optimality. This thread is an example of that; if the table is full of characters who cannot alpha-strike, and the GM is good, then they will avoid the problem this thread describes and Have More Fun. Add one alpha-strike optimal character and the fun becomes harder to find.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2010 - 12:57PM
#106
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force people outside of their comfort zone or to face the flaws over over-optimized builds.
Right.
Because the one thing that makes the sort of person who purposefully builds an over-optimized PC have the most fun is to have that PC not work the way it's supposed to. lol
If you want to be challenged or face big obstacles, you build a mildly optimized (or *gasp* unoptimized) PC. If you go the route of hyper-optimization, it means you probably like to win and really really really hate to lose. I don't think that it is our role (collectively, as a campaign) to try to put the optimizer in his place, or show him the error of his ways.
The optimizer is not inherently wrong.
The non-optimizer is not "better", in an ethical sense.
If there is a conflict between the two, the default should not be to knock the dirty optimizer down a rung. It should also not be to kill off all the unoptomized PCs in some sort of sped up version of the evolution of species, until only Pun-pun is left.
The most sensible solution I can see is to build up a campaign that tries to challenge the folks who want to be challenged, and is a cakewalk for folks who want to cakewalk. It is only when these groups mingle that there is any conflict at all - and again, I can't stress this enough, the onus is not only on the cakewalk crew to do all the compromising. In mixed playstyle groups, once the mismatch has been detected, the challenge crew need to accept that the adventure might very well be a bit eay for their taste, and the cakewalk crew need to accept that they need to share the limelight a bit more than they'd like.
Nicely said.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2010 - 1:00PM
#107
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2006
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How do you -- in the first round of combat before many monsters have gone (hence, Alphastrike) -- that the fight is "clearly an easy fight?" Also, you might not know the initiative order. So, sure if you knew the fight was easy and knew that 2 other PCs were going next, it could make sense to not action point, etc. But what if you don't finish him off and then he goes and subjects the table to the AOE power of doom stun, dominate, etc. effect?? In real time, assuming you haven't read the mod, you just don't know how easy the fight is going to be or just how dangerous the monsters are (if they haven't gone). That's why it makes sense to eliminate the threat if you can.
First, you have to have a little faith that the adventure is appropriately scaled and realize that dying in a mod has precious little impact should it go wrong and be improperly scaled. There are some notable exceptions but, the general LFR community would say that most mods tend toward being underscaled for optimized characters. If you you don't have a heavily optimized character, chances are alphastriking is much less of an issue.
Secondly, if you are the first guy alphastriking it might be an issue unless you just did on all the previous encounters in which case somewhere along the line, you went way overboard on an encounter and are probably now showing off and/or continuing to prevent another player from enjoying some of the last chances to impact the adventure. Alphastriking once is not the same as multiple characters doing so on one encounter or opening up that way in every encounter. Moderation helps alot and can be the difference between viewed as a party asset or an encounter hog.
Further, I really think being considerate of other players is totally unrelated to alphastriking. Most of being considerate has to do with player to player behavior rather than character to character. To the extent being considerate does have to do with actual character behavior, I can think of more important things to focus on, such as: don't run ahead of the leader and expect him to come rescue you; don't hog all the party resources; coordinate with the controller about positioning; don't put down a zone that hinders sight if the party would be better off without it, etc., etc.
I am all for consideration of your other party members and these are some good examples. The key is knowing what your party members goals are. Some are to dominate encounters, some are to play out their character, some are to see interesting fights play out. Have that discussion and work to create a balance. That may mean you warned the reckless guy about overextending and his healing priority slips down the list a little or that another player's action means you need to move a little, target one fewer opponent or suffer and extra -2 penalty. Alot of times those small adjustments are a big deal to the optimizer but, not to another player. Compromise a little, work on different parts of a battle and stay away from completely working against one another.
I would agree it's not only the alphastriker who needs to adjust but, they are often the most rigid about there being only one razor thin way to walk the line. Absolutes and "right answers" tend to be their stock and trade so compromises can be difficult. Most people want to be successful and accomplish the mods but, flawlessly and expertly overcoming an encounter is not the only goal of our game.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2010 - 3:17PM
#108
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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How do you -- in the first round of combat before many monsters have gone (hence, Alphastrike) -- that the fight is "clearly an easy fight?" Also, you might not know the initiative order. So, sure if you knew the fight was easy and knew that 2 other PCs were going next, it could make sense to not action point, etc. But what if you don't finish him off and then he goes and subjects the table to the AOE power of doom stun, dominate, etc. effect?? In real time, assuming you haven't read the mod, you just don't know how easy the fight is going to be or just how dangerous the monsters are (if they haven't gone). That's why it makes sense to eliminate the threat if you can.
First, you have to have a little faith that the adventure is appropriately scaled and realize that dying in a mod has precious little impact should it go wrong and be improperly scaled. There are some notable exceptions but, the general LFR community would say that most mods tend toward being underscaled for optimized characters. If you you don't have a heavily optimized character, chances are alphastriking is much less of an issue.
Secondly, if you are the first guy alphastriking it might be an issue unless you just did on all the previous encounters in which case somewhere along the line, you went way overboard on an encounter and are probably now showing off and/or continuing to prevent another player from enjoying some of the last chances to impact the adventure. Alphastriking once is not the same as multiple characters doing so on one encounter or opening up that way in every encounter. Moderation helps alot and can be the difference between viewed as a party asset or an encounter hog.
Further, I really think being considerate of other players is totally unrelated to alphastriking. Most of being considerate has to do with player to player behavior rather than character to character. To the extent being considerate does have to do with actual character behavior, I can think of more important things to focus on, such as: don't run ahead of the leader and expect him to come rescue you; don't hog all the party resources; coordinate with the controller about positioning; don't put down a zone that hinders sight if the party would be better off without it, etc., etc.
I am all for consideration of your other party members and these are some good examples. The key is knowing what your party members goals are. Some are to dominate encounters, some are to play out their character, some are to see interesting fights play out. Have that discussion and work to create a balance. That may mean you warned the reckless guy about overextending and his healing priority slips down the list a little or that another player's action means you need to move a little, target one fewer opponent or suffer and extra -2 penalty. Alot of times those small adjustments are a big deal to the optimizer but, not to another player. Compromise a little, work on different parts of a battle and stay away from completely working against one another.
I would agree it's not only the alphastriker who needs to adjust but, they are often the most rigid about there being only one razor thin way to walk the line. Absolutes and "right answers" tend to be their stock and trade so compromises can be difficult. Most people want to be successful and accomplish the mods but, flawlessly and expertly overcoming an encounter is not the only goal of our game.
I couldn't have said it better. This is all about being considerate for your fellow gamer. Everyone(DM included) has a right to have fun at the gaming table. Just not at the expense of someone else's fun
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3 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2010 - 5:43PM
#109
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2001
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Everyone plays for different reasons.
None of those reasons are any more "right" or "wrong" than any other.
The only qualifier is, take a moment of consideration when your particular play preference might negatively impact another player's.
That alpha strike is nifty and cool, but it's not so cool for the guy who has the lowest initiative that doesn't get to do anything combat-wise all adventure.
This is not to say, "Never do it", just, y'know, be aware of your fellow players.
This applies to non-combat situations too. I don't know how many loud bombastic roleplayers I've seen completely dominating a game and monopolizing the DM's time, completely oblivious to how he or she is affecting the other players.
Be considerate. That's not asking too much.
-karma
LFR Characters:
Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard
Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard
Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
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3 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2010 - 7:38PM
#110
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Date Joined:
Apr 11, 2008
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First, you have to have a little faith that the adventure is appropriately scaled and realize that dying in a mod has precious little impact should it go wrong and be improperly scaled.
Frankly, I think that's a horrible attitude and flies in the face of role-playing a believable character. No one in real life holds back in a combat situation to make sure that all of his allies also get a chance to do something to their enemies. Within the game, it's a life-and-death scenario, and even resurrection magic isn't justification enough for taking such a risk. My highest level character in LFR is level 16, and he isn't optimized for initiative or damage. Sometimes, when the rest of the group rolls high, my main contribution to a fight consists of my warlord class features boosting the alpha strikes of other characters. Even so, I'd rather see that than have the ranger decide that bloodying the elite was enough... and then the elite stuns half the party, or worse, dominates the ranger and has him bloody one of his allies.
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