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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 11:46AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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I just got back from a long convention weekend. It was a blast but I made several observations that I thought I would share with the internet LFR community and see what others thought.
- Righteous Rage of Tempus is still silly.
- Dice of Auspicious Fortune need another beating by the nerf bat.
- The sorcerer damage class feature is excessive at paragon (something I and others complained about when they were first previewed)
Besides the above mechanical issues (which each came up several times) the biggest 'fun-deterrent' for the weekend was the much loved alpha strike round. Yes, it is clearly effective but sometimes its not necessary and it just hurts the fun of other people at the table.
In one mod I was running for a six person table the first round went something like this:
Fighter moves up and attacks, crits, uses an action point.
Warlord moves up and attacks, uses an action point.
Sorcerer AoEs to pull the enemies together, crits one, uses Dice of Auspicious Fortune to crit another one, uses an action point to AoE again.
Archer ranger Biting Volleys, uses an action point.
At this point most of the enemies are dead. There are two left: one with single digit hit points and the other mostly full but who needs 15s to hit the lowest AC in the party. The encounter is clearly over and I'm about the call it. I call the melee ranger's initiative and he looks to me frustrated because the battle is already over and he didn't have a single meaningful turn.
I ran into this scenario several times over the course of the convention and I realized the problem is more prevalent than I had thought. Most people just don't give a thought about other people's fun at the table. They understand well enough the mechanics of keeping their tablemate's characters alive but the concept of holding back so that other people can contribute is foreign to them.
I ask that everyone consider the following next time your turn comes up:
Do you really need to nova this turn? If the battle is under control perhaps you can save your standard action+action point+minor action attack+Dice of Auspicious Fortune usage for another turn.
Do you need to stun/blind/otherwise completely disable the monster(s) this turn? Perhaps if you saved your hard control power that you were going to use for another round someone would take damage and the leader would have an opportunity to shine.
Anyone else see this type of scenario recently?
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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 12:41PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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I see this quite often when playing at the higher levels. But much more so at conventions. I even do it, though I try to save my nova for the second round or third so I can tell whether it is needed. On my striker. On my other PCs I don't have nova rounds so it isn't really that big a deal.
One thing I've noticed that seems to have been the result of an arms race is the initiative order. At Paragon, at least, I rarely have monsters go first any more. Between feats (improved initiative, danger sense), classes (warlords), and items (battle harnesses, helm of battle, timeless lockets, etc) monsters, even with their high initiatives, very rarely tend to win initiative.
And I understand why folks did it. They were tired of going after all the monsters. But it still makes that nova round even more gross.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 12:46PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2008
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This is related to my "let everyone have their moment in the limelight" on-going discussion with a mutual friend.
The premise of the discussion is to allow everyone at the table a moment that they can shine thus contribute and participate during the playing of the adventure. The core of the discussion is how others may have to sacrifice some glory so that other may partake in some.
I personally, will allow other players to do skill checks that my character is primed to do because that other player is obviously having fun doing the roleplaying that accompanies said check.
I will also assess the perceived threat on the battlefield and make a determination on the level of risk I am exposed to which will prompt me to take an appropriate level of response action. Fortunately or unfortunately, the majority of DMs running LFR mods make this risk level low hence I am able to do 6.6 second turns as opposed to 5 plus minute turns other players take.
But to answer your question,
Yes, I have seen this type of scenario recently as a DM as well as a player. I must say it isn't fun for everyone at the table.
I also ask you to take this into account. Even though gamers are not normally associated as being as ALPHA males, I do believe in human nature there is a need to rank ourselves among our peers and one way to rise in rank is to show how much damage one can do in combat hence the use of RROT and the other features you mentioned above.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 1:27PM
#4
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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A lot of me thinks there's a lot more to be done on the side of rules updates and adventure design than on requests to players there - sure, some people overdo it, but I'd much rather have a quick combat than a grindfest. If that means stuff dies before I use all my encounter powers - okay.
Now, I do object to people whose turns take _forever_, or who overdo it such that they can drop a solo on their own... but that's separate from the concept of having alpha strikes to turn combats into controlled situations.
Some examples:
* In LFR we get an AP almost every combat. That's not my experience in non-LFR.
* Minions are de-emphasized in LFR due to xp cost, reducing one of many possible impediments to getting to key monsters to nova them
* Encounters rarely have enough of an xp budget to work in phases or stages, with reinforcements coming in a round or two later
Certain powers and items are being toned down to make them all stack a little bit less well together, but honestly - any encounter that _could_ be won in one round is likely not an encounter worth the time invested into it. DME it harder, combine it with something later, or design the adventure differently.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 1:35PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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A lot of me thinks there's a lot more to be done on the side of rules updates and adventure design than on requests to players there - sure, some people overdo it, but I'd much rather have a quick combat than a grindfest. If that means stuff dies before I use all my encounter powers - okay. Now, I do object to people whose turns take _forever_, or who overdo it such that they can drop a solo on their own... but that's separate from the concept of having alpha strikes to turn combats into controlled situations.
I agree I would rather have quick combats than grindfests that go an hour over the time slot but I am not describing that situation.
There are times when pushing your actions to the limit is appropriate and there are times when it is not.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 2:05PM
#6
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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If you get an action point every combat, and you have something valuable to do with an AP in the first round... then you can expect someone to use an AP in the first round. If you have six players, that means the DM can expect 6 APs thrown his way. Every combat.
If you face two or maybe three fights in a day, and you have 4 daily attacks and 2 daily utility/items of note, then expect 2-3 of them. With six players, that's 12-18 of them. Every combat.
If you've got an encounter minor action attack and an encounter immediate, that's another thing that'll often happen in the first round. Maybe six of those total, since not everyone has those.
That's not even a crazy nova alpha strike principle. That's just dividing the resources at hand over the combats you face.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 2:11PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2007
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* In LFR we get an AP almost every combat.
* Minions are de-emphasized in LFR due to xp cost, reducing one of many possible impediments to getting to key monsters to nova them
* Encounters rarely have enough of an xp budget to work in phases or stages, with reinforcements coming in a round or two later
+1
Dan Anderson
@EpicUthrac
Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Meet me at TotalConfusion:
http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 2:16PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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Anyone else see this type of scenario recently?
I think one reason is a simple lack of trust.
Players unload in an alpha strike because they think they have to. Oh, some of it is because it's fun to show off your character's abilities. A good portion of it, however, is because you think you're going to get screwed if you don't.
I've rolled a 28 initiative in P1 and had my first action be a death save. I have seen PCs start a combat stunned (save ends), and then not make the save for three rounds; or immobilized (save ends), in a zone that will re-immobilize them at the start of their turn even if they make the save
All it takes is one fight where you're dropped or rendered ineffective before you have the chance to act, for players to start taking precautions to make sure that doesn't happen again. 95% of the time, this won't be needed, but if the players feel they can't trust authors/editors enough, they won't take a chance by holding back.
I just had an obvious example this past weekend: A module with what, from the setup, looked like a pretty fun arena fight. However, the rules for the combat were that a PC had to leave the combat if they became bloodied (which is a pretty lousy setup; the reason we got rid of 'save or die' effects was because it's no fun sitting there watching everyone play D&D for 40 minutes because you were out of the combat in the first round), and it was also from a region known for having tough combats.
By the end of the third PC's turn, the combat was over, without the bad guys ever having a chance to go. My cleric used Strategist's Epiphany and rolled well, so the PCs all went first: the sorcerer unloaded on them, as did the two fighters (all three using action points), after which all of the enemies were bloodied.
We then kind of sat around sheepishly for a moment, as the DM (though he took it with good grace) had clearly been looking forward to running what looked like a fun encounter.
No one really wanted to take the chance, however. Maybe the stated tactics would have required the DM to focus fire on the squishiest target and take him out in the first round. Maybe the mage had a burst "you're out of the combat" (save ends) power. No way of knowing until it's too late, and so, we lost out on a fun experience.
I'm not sure what lesson we're supposed to learn, however--after all, the next module in that particular series is DALE1-6, in which holding back in the first round pretty much guarantees a TPK.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 2:33PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jul 13, 2008
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This might be bending the rules a little bit, but if I'm able to, when running -
In encounters I some times don't have all the monsters placed on the map. Some of them might be in the next room or just through the portal. It really depends on the encounter, the mod, and the players actions.
So people that like to use those big alpha strikes might end up be drained of all their nice powers when bursting from a room is the main bad guy.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 3:16PM
#10
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I agree with Matt12. Why not just DME the monsters? I thought if the players were making a cake walk of the mod, you were supposed to adjust to their play style. Same if they are constantly struggling. That's what I ususally do and everyone gets a turn.
Could we ask the DM to hold back on all the monsters uber abilities until everyone at the table gets a turn to attack? No dominate, weaken, stun, grab, immobilize, etc. by anyone during the first round. No hitting in the face or below the waist.
When I'm roleplaying my characters, I go for the quickest kill possible. We are adventurer's, not diplomats. We kill bad guys and take their stuff. And yeah, I've had to make a Death Save or 40 during my adventuring career. It's part of the game.
I've played both a damage dealer and a support class. I've been in mods where I throw out a Saving Throw or Heal and that's about it. That's my character's role with that company. Any Healing I distribute, any "make a melee basic" command I issue, any Saving Throw I allow or any detrimental condition I drop on a baddie are all key to victories. I may not have the killing blow nor may I even attack the thing, but I helped kill it just the same.
Also, if for some reason, I didn't get to do anything in one encounter, doesn't mean I'm never going to be able to help the team out. Different encounters call for different strategies. Terrain, flying or teleporting enemies or other mechanical effects can all be used to change up a team's tactics from one adventure to another.
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