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Unfortunately D&D seems to have turned into the "Who Wins Initiative" Game - which PCs will always win.

I have seen the situation you've described where the person with the lowest initiative either doesn't get a turn at all or the fight is essentially over by the time they finally get to go.  It is definitely unfun for the player(s) with the lowest initiative.  But it can also make the fight less fun for the other players as well (yes, I know, it depends on who the players are).

I don't generally build Nova characters.  But the first (only?) time I ever had a character Nova something - I was very excited!  I killed the BBEG in one turn, all by myself!  (Attacks on the Run desperately needs to be errata'ed...)  But I was only excited for about 30 seconds - until I realized that I had basically destroyed the entire encounter and made it unfun for everyone (myself included).  The BBEG I had killed was the only monster in the encounter that had any interesting attacks.  If I remember correctly, the combat lasted several rounds (since I was the only one who had Nova'ed), but it was boring for all of us.  We knew we had won and we were just rolling dice to go through the motions.  It ruined what could have been a fun and interesting combat. 

Nova'ing (especially mass-nova'ing) just emphasizes the "you win initiative so you win D&D" problem.  It's like playing Rock, Paper, Scissors instead of D&D - except D&D takes longer. 

On a related/side note - I was very excited about getting Fighter's Recovery for my LFR Fighter.  It's a daily power that lets you regain an encounter power after you've used all your encounter powers.  Well, I was excited about it until I played a few mods and realized that I could never ever use it - the LFR combats were always over too fast.  Or if the fight actually lasted long enough that I could use it, most of the monsters were already dead so it was pointless.

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I have seen some effective ways that encounters or DMs have been able to get around the Nova turn.  At a convention I played at a table with a really unpleasant power-gamer/nova'er who had the cheesiest and most optimized characters imaginable.  It was clear (to everyone but himself) that he was making the game less fun for all the other players at the table.  In one encounter he did a huge daily, action point'ed, and did another huge daily - completely obliterating one of the big monsters.  Surprisingly, the encounter was actually still challenging and interesting.  I found out later that the DM had just DME'd an identical monster to show up in its place.  (The monsters were all flying out of a pit, so none of the players thought it was strange when another one flew out.)  The DM made it so everyone got to have fun.  The Nova player still got to feel cool and show off his character (since he didn't know the DM just replaced the monster he killed) and the rest of the players actually got to play. 

I've also liked some of the anti-Nova mechanics that have shown up in a few mods.  Like when all the mooks are giving the BBEG resistances and you have to kill them before you can effectively damage the BBEG. 

Jun 2, 2010 -- 11:25PM, Hibiki54 wrote:

I don't see a problem with a player going Nova. At Conventions I'd rather have a player going nova and I don't get a turn because everything is dead, then have to cut the adventure short because of time.

Or miss the rest of the fight because I am dead. I agree, I'd rather see someone else winning the fight for my side without me needing to unsheathe my sword, than having to make death saving throws because someone thought it was a good idea to leave a baddie for me to beat up which then proceeded to beat me up instead.

Not always. There is the risk that the PCs used dailies and encounter powers that they don't have anymore. In that case adding more monsters is not necessarily going to lead to a TPK, but it does run the risk of turning it into a somewhat boring hp grind feast. I have certainly seen this happen when the PCs did go for the alpha strike attack, only to learn that the real threat was not even present at the map (which is ultimately the best way to deal with alpha strike builds).

Alpha striking is common sense. In just about any situation, hitting first and hitting hard early are big keys to victory. Holding back is only really useful when there is some trickery about or you are unsure about the target (minions, illusions, some strange defense).

The game is full of things that destroy the fun of the game if used too much - Voidcrystal weapons are an example where you can remove a really cool part of an encounter then complain the encounter was too easy... gee, I wonder why? A lot of the items that get nerfed are awesome except when used to break situations... and then they have to get nerfed and ruin normal uses (Healer's Sash, Timeless Locket, Boots of Eagerness, etc.). Alpha striking is both common sense and then sometimes really bad for the game. You generally have little concept of how many HPs a critter has, but just end up blowing it away.

Sure, restraint is in order. But, at the same time, the reaction is just very logical. I don't really see it as a reaction to difficult/unfair combats, but just normal nature like choosing feats that provide a stacking benefit. It is the obvious better path... until you won too easily (and the deal is done at that point). For my only really "broken" PC, my warlock, I deliberately chose the AoE  attack everything path because it allows everyone else to still go.  Sure, I may bloody a lot of things, but they get to kill them. And  that's really (usually) worst case if I roll well.

As a frequent playtester, one of the main combat comments our group makes is around how the encounter can protect against alpha strikes (especially ranged but also from charges... charging just seems to be the thing these days in our gaming groups). Authors can look at trying to place monsters in cover or off-map until certain things happen. You have to be careful with that, but it is usually more fun than the alternative when the combat is supposed to be thrilling. Choosing foes that are not an obvious "this is clearly the thing to kill first" helps, but you can't always do that.

It is really a problem with very little solution. Some restraint is called for, some editing and authoring, and some DMing.

One thought is that maybe it is time to revise the DME rules. Maybe we are far enough along that we should give DMs greater latitude to adjust the encounter beyond changing levels and allowing things to work. Maybe it is time to allow a number of other things, with the clear principle of "fun"... perhaps requiring the DM to ask permission? Just throwing the concept out there.

Jun 2, 2010 -- 10:08AM, Ferol_debtor_of_Torm wrote:

So you're okay with never getting a turn in an encounter?

Frankly, yes I am.  I only remember it ever happening once in 200+ adventures, and it was a very exciting time, with lots of whooping and high-fives - the combat still lives on in a "hey remember that time..." anecdote sort of way.  And I'm not a guy who optimizes for initiative - of my 4 Paragon PCs, the highest modifier among them is +10 (for the level 14 with a 16 Dex) so I'm not skewed into not noticing just because I end up always going first.

Even if the ratio was increased from 1 in 200 up to 1 in 5 adventures (a 4000% increase), I'd still be fine.  I suppose if it was more often than this I'd start to get tired of it.

Jun 3, 2010 -- 9:05AM, Alphastream1 wrote:

It is really a problem with very little solution.

I still say that there is not unanimous consent that there is a problem at all.  I think it is a feature, not a bug.  If a very small (or even a fairly small) number of encounters end this way, it is fun.  And I don't really see anyone here claiming that this happens with any great frequency.