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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 5:19PM
#11
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I just came back from the same Convention as the OP. This particular Con I decided to play only Paragon adventures with the exception of a particular slot that I wanted to play a specific character of mine.
The Alpha Strike for PCs can either be a metagame reaction to certain monsters on the map or, as some suggest, a way to show off their PCs. I feel this is true in both cases. I great example is when I was playing my Taclord Battle Captain and there was a Mind Flayer present, I told the multi-attack Tempest Fighter to go nova him. And so he multi-Crit our problems away. We finished the final combat of a P2 adventure in 2 rounds because of the Alpha Strike, so I'm not complaining. Everyone at the table had fun role playing and blowing things up and the DM had some fun despite being tired.
As a DM, I hate being Alpha Striked upon, especially when monsters have cool powers I want the PCs to be effected with. But this does go to show you that the best tactical decision a group of PCs can make is to unload on the most dangerous monster on the table. I don't blame them for it.
The best condition to put on a monster is dead.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 5:40PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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I'm not talking about the PCs succeeding or failing. In the scenarios I'm describing the PCs clearly have thing under control. Nor am I trying to debate against the tactical advantage associated with this tactic - it's clearly very effective.
I am just suggesting that, when things are in hand, players show a little restraint so that the character who rolled low on his/her initiative or can't get in range on turn one be able to do something meaningful in an encounter. Your minor action attack/action point/Auspicious crit will still be there on turn two, three, etc.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 6:30PM
#13
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2007
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We played DALE2-2 (P2: 14-17) this weekend. I had a Taclord/Spiral Tactician, Cleric/Divine Oracle, Wizard/Divine Oracle, Ranger/Battle Archer, Swordmage/Riposte Master, and a Wizard/Spell Tower. Needless to say both Divine Oracles have Danger Sense and the Taclord can arrange some initiatives. Init scores ranged from 35-47. Can't beat that with monsters. Everything died within a round or two. A significant number of enemies died in the first round. Mod was decimated and me, the DM, was left with very little to challenge the PCs.
Initiative at paragon+ is significantly important.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 6:55PM
#14
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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When presented with a group like that - you can always ask if they'd like the module to be more difficult, and DME appropriately. Or just DME more aggressively, until combats last at least two rounds.
Or, just let them blow it away. Maybe spend more time on roleplaying.
I've been playing a game recently called King's Bounty, and I very much enjoy the combats in them, even though I basically never lose - but my goal is to actually win perfectly, with no losses, often while achieving other goals (extra treasure, killing monsters with specific spells, etc)... I've done something similar before, where I (a leader) challenged the other leader that neither of us would use any heals during battle. Obviously, we were never in danger, for us to make a challenge like that. But it was a hell of a lot of fun for us. Even if a couple of the other players whimpered a little (Whaa, I'm bloody, whaa)
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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3 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2010 - 7:29PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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Or, just let them blow it away. Maybe spend more time on roleplaying.
I am not talking about challenging the party. That is not the issue. No realistic amount of DME is going to challenge an even moderately CharOped party.
I am talking about leaving enough of the encounter in tact so that everyone in the party gets a chance to do something meaningful. You shouldn't need Improved Initiative just so you can have a chance to make an attack roll before the encounter is over.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2010 - 2:03AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2008
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The best condition to put on a monster is dead.
This is the problem. Right here. I'll quote it again.
The best condition to put on a monster is dead.
The problem with many combats in LFR is that this is true, combined with the fact that it's very easily achievable.
How many movies do you watch where the hero walking into a room and shooting the villain point-blank during the opening credits suffices to tell a good story? Few.
I think LFR authors need to reconsider their tack here. Some examples:
- A situation where, if the PCs kill the monsters before they trigger the macguffin, The Bad Thing happens.
- A situation where all of the monsters cannot be damaged while PCs aren't standing in certain squares.
- A situation where alpha striking on the monsters will let a retreating monster get away.
Sure, you can make combats harder, but I think that's a dangerous route to take. All it does is reinforce the behavior that's causing the problem.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2010 - 8:17AM
#17
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First I want to say I have only been playing Dungeons and Dragons since October 2008, I have never played another Living Campaign or other Organized version of any other Roleplaying Game
The OP said so that the purpose here was to let the guy in the back of the initiative order do something meaningful in combat. Now this has happened to me many times so trust me when I say it happens and it's not the same DM, it's happened at DDXP, Origins, Gencon, local Game Days.
Okay lets say you do that, 3 of the 4 players go first they get spread out attack leave the monsters alive, or don't even engage a monster, so after all of the other players go, it's the monsters Turn, they see that 3 of the players have gone and the 4th has not gone, what happens (at least to me ) Ohh look a PC who hasn't acted, Im gonna go ahead and hit that player who has not acted with Stun, Immobolize, Dazed, Weakened, Unable to take Standard actions, Dominate(Especially Dominated) etc. The General consensus I have gotten as a player since starting the campaign is Any player who has not acted is fair game for the DM to prevent them from getting a turn/actions and as a player if my options are attack some monsters that are low on HP or Make a saving throw because I am controlled, give me a attack. Now as for the Meta game end of it or I probably just play All Alpha Strike characters, I consider it roleplaying as to how each of my Characters re-acts in each Combat. Paladin/Bard, Not a damage dealer, He has 2 roles 1 Defend/2 Let other Players act by removing conditions. He Usually goes first finds a monster and locks it down to the point where it is completly unable to make attacks that are not the Character or to the point that the Monster has a -4/-6 to attack anyone other than the Paladin. Also Has abilities to remove the nasty effects that Monsters like to inflict. However when I remove said conditions before the Character I made able to act is usually stuck in conditions again before they act again, it gets to the point I delay to the point before that character goes so they can get a turn. Minotaur Barbarian MOOOOOOOOO-- He Moo's and he attacks the closest enemy to him. He considers himself the biggest thing on the field and should anything bigger exist he attacks it instead. Warlord/Spiral Tactician -- Has a higher Int than Str has bonuses to Monster Knowledge checks items to find lowest defence/current hp etc and directs the battle Sorcerer -- Causes as much chaos as possible and doesn't care how many ally's he hurts to do it. He's not the kind of Sorcerer who slides all the targets into a box and destroy's them he just causes chaos on the battlefield. I know it's not a game of DM VS Players but alot of DM's are players as well and sometimes(I know it has happened to me in the past, I've made it a habit of telling my players to tell me to stop being a Jerk) Is that they get that competitive edge and are so tired of getting the crap kicked out of them they try to win. It gets annoying out at Cons.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2010 - 9:53AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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causing the problem.
Just so we're all clear, it is not a unanimous opinion that there is a problem.
As a DM, I loooove it when the players easily kick the crap out of my monsters.
As a player, I loooove to kick the crap out of monsters. I also still have as good of a time if it is someone other than me doing the kicking.
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3 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2010 - 10:08AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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As a player, I loooove to kick the crap out of monsters. I also still have as good of a time if it is someone other than me doing the kicking.
So you're okay with never getting a turn in an encounter?
Unfortunately I don't think most people feel this way. What advice would you have for people that get frustrated when they can't get a turn because everything is dead when their initiative comes up?
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3 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2010 - 10:17AM
#20
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I'll agree with a basic premise of yours: not getting a chance to do something in a combat, due to the combat being over in less than a round, would be frustrating to many players, if it happened consistently. If a "half-round combat" happened every once in a while, I suspect that relatively few players would have an issue with it.
So, my question is: how often does this really happen? Granted, I have yet to play paragon-tier in LFR, and most of the folks with whom I play tend to not completely cheese out their characters, but...I've never, ever seen this happen in LFR. Ferol, it sounds like you saw it several times in that recent convention...is that consistent with your general experiences in LFR, or is it an outlier?
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
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