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3 years ago ::
May 30, 2010 - 5:12PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Mar 20, 2009
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I play with a regular group, and although composition often varies slightly, we normally try to create parties with a reasonable amount of balance. So we're in a better position than a few of the groups thrown together randomly at a convention, where people count themselves lucky if they have both a leader and a defender on the same table.
However, recently playing at H3, we've come across a couple of situations that really stretched the party.
One encounter had 4-5 enemies flying outside of melee reach. And our group only had one ranged striker. Whilst the twin weapon ranger and the fighter could do a little damage at range, overall we were being hit far harder than the amount of damage we could deal in return.
In another encounter we faced a group of enemies that included a war troll. Whilst we could knock the troll down fairly easily, between our group we only had one single fire attack, which was an encounter power. So we couldn't keep it down. Which made the combat quite difficult - especially since the encounter was in a confined space, so the troll could dominate much of the battle field, and there were several other nasty monsters in the fight.
In both these situations we should arguably have wiped. We managed to survive due to some kind DMing, but that's not something I'm really comfortable with.
So what should a party do to counter these kind of threats? To counter flying groups, should we always make sure to never make groups without at least 2 ranged characters - which seems odd given the way the game seems to encourage melee leaders and strikers so much in published classes. What about countering the troll? Do we always need some source of acid or fire available? In 3.5 it was normal just to bring some oil or acid and dump it on downed trolls to keep them down - but in 4th edition, that's much harder - the troll can't must be downed by fire or acid (not damaged when downed), and, for example, the best alchemical acid available at H3 (level 6) costs 75gp a shot and only has a 25% chance of hitting.
What I'm trying to say is - how far are players expected to plan to counter these kind of threats. Or are we just supposed to occasionally just lay down and die. Not through bad luck or bad planning - but just because we took the wrong characters to the wrong fight? Or is DM charity expected in such situations?
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3 years ago ::
May 30, 2010 - 6:23PM
#2
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Well, the easy one first. Against trolls, consider buying a +1 flaming weapon. Or look again at Alchemist's Fire - 20 GP, miss does half damage. You only have to do 1 point of damage to keep the troll from regenerating. We've also ruled that you can coup-de-grace it to it's negative bloody value when it will die like any other creature, although I don't know that it is spelled out specifically anywhere. Flying creatures are tougher, and IMHO one of the weakest areas of 4E combat and available workarounds for melee characters. It gets worse at paragon - you frequently face flying creatures and for melee characters there's not a lot they can do other than chuck javelins. You do all at least have +1 javelins, right? So look for power combinations. Set it up so that character A knocks the creature prone - forcing it to land while character B follows up with an immobilize attack or grapples it. Ready attacks if it has to get in close to hit. Once again a rule we usually follow if that if a creature is hitting you with a natural weapon (claw, bite, etc) you can hit it as a readied action when it attacks you even if it has reach. Also remember that the errata clarified that forced movement can pull things down to you. But honestly given the luck-of-the-draw nature of most game days flying creatures are a pain. Even in Paragon there are only a handful of items (winged boots and winged armor to name a couple) that give you flying as a daily power and then only for a single move per day. The 3.5 days of buying potions of flying are gone. Which means that some mods will be cake-walks with the right characters and a TPK or encounter failure if the DM doesn't compensate for a lack of ranged strikers in an otherwise well-balanced party. Of course there are people out there who will argue that if your party doesn't have at least 2 ranged strikers it's not well balanced in the first place, which I personally have a problem with. Good luck,
Allen.
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3 years ago ::
May 30, 2010 - 6:27PM
#3
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Almost forgot for the troll ... you can always hit a helpless creature with a coup de grace with any attack as long as you are adjacent to it. It does not specify that it has to be a melee attack, so the Alchemist's Fire will automatically hit and do 6 points of damage.
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3 years ago ::
May 30, 2010 - 7:35PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2009
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I'm not sure why you can't keep the troll down. It was my understanding that in 4th ed that regeneration doesn't work when you're under 0 HP.
I'm willing to be proven wrong in this.
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3 years ago ::
May 30, 2010 - 7:39PM
#5
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I'm not sure why you can't keep the troll down. It was my understanding that in 4th ed that regeneration doesn't work when you're under 0 HP.
I'm willing to be proven wrong in this.
Regeneration isn't the issue; this power is.
Troll Healing Healing If the troll is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer by an attack that does not deal acid or fire damage, it rises on its next turn (as a move action) with 10 hit points. As far as flying enemies go, unless they have ranged attacks, readying actions is your friend. Ready an action to smack whichever flier gets adjacent to you first; if you can make it prone, slow, or immobilized in the process, all the better.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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3 years ago ::
May 30, 2010 - 10:59PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2001
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I haven't run into too many problems with combats in higher levels, but then again my main character is a controller.
Battlefield control becomes hugely important in later levels.
-karma
LFR Characters:
Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard
Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard
Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
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3 years ago ::
May 31, 2010 - 12:19AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Dec 15, 2005
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For Trolls we quickly adopted the houserule that using fire when it is down is enough to keep it down. Timing the exact moment to throw an alchemist fire can be a pain in the butt and it gets boring when you have to try it like 5 times.
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3 years ago ::
May 31, 2010 - 3:08AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Mar 20, 2009
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Well playing strictly according to the rules, most attacks can't even target the troll when it's down, and even if you can, it's still unaffected. You can't kill something that's dead.
There's simply no way in the game rules to stop it from rising again. The only way to kill it permanantly is to do the last point of damage with acid or fire - which can be pretty hard to arrange for some parties, but which is a cakewalk for other groups.
A houserule might be some sort of solution - but it won't work when I take my character to a convention.
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3 years ago ::
May 31, 2010 - 3:12AM
#9
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Well playing strictly according to the rules, most attacks can't even target the troll when it's down, and even if you can, it's still unaffected. You can't kill something that's dead.
There's simply no way in the game rules to stop it from rising again. The only way to kill it permanantly is to do the last point of damage with acid or fire - which can be pretty hard to arrange for some parties, but which is a cakewalk for other groups.
A houserule might be some sort of solution - but it won't work when I take my character to a convention.
Does anyone in the party have something flamable? Douse the troll and light him up with a torch
At the very least cauterize his eyes with a torce while hes down!
Gotta think outside the box
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3 years ago ::
May 31, 2010 - 4:17AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Mar 20, 2009
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Does anyone in the party have something flamable? Douse the troll and light him up with a torch
At the very least cauterize his eyes with a torce while hes down!
Gotta think outside the box
Thinking outside the box isn't the problem - applying fire damage to a downed troll is very easy. The problem is, it's also, according to the rules, completely ineffective.
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