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3 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2010 - 11:10AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Feb 11, 2006
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I ran into a unique situation last night, and I wanted to run it by the boards before I went through with it. A guy at my LFR table offered to use Transfer Enchantment to turn my +2 Elven Cloak into a +2 Badge of the Berserker. When I asked him how this was possible, he offered the following from the CCG:
[pg. 9] "You can transfer any magic item quality to another legal item . . . as long as you have access to the quality."
[pg. 9] "You can purchase any magic item that is equal to or less than your level with gold, as long as you have access to it. See "Player Resources" on page 2 of the RPGA Character Creation Guide to determine what magic items and rituals / formulas are accessible by your character."
So here's the logic. I'm a level 7 Ranger. I have a +2 Elven Cloak (a level 7 item). By virtue of my level (and pg. 2 of the CCG), I have access to anything level 7 or less in AV2. That includes a +2 Badge of the Berserker (another level 7 item). Since I have access to both items, I should be able to transfer the property from the Badge to my cloak for 25gp, creating a +2 Cloak of the Berserker.
RAW, this should work. RAI, it's admittedly shady. Thoughts?
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3 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2010 - 11:14AM
#2
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Well, for one thing, there's no such item as a "Cloak of the Berserker". I don't think you can use Transfer Enchantment to create a non-standard item.
For another thing, as I understand it, what Transfer Enchantment does is move an *existing* enchantment from one item onto another item (as long as the new item is a legal "recipient" for it). You'd need to *start* with a Badge of the Berserker, and then transfer it onto another item (which would be silly, anyway, since the only legal thing you could place it on is another "badge").
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
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3 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2010 - 11:43AM
#3
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So here's the logic. I'm a level 7 Ranger. I have a +2 Elven Cloak (a level 7 item). By virtue of my level (and pg. 2 of the CCG), I have access to anything level 7 or less in AV2. That includes a +2 Badge of the Berserker (another level 7 item). Since I have access to both items, I should be able to transfer the property from the Badge to my cloak for 25gp, creating a +2 Cloak of the Berserker.
RAW, this should work. RAI, it's admittedly shady. Thoughts?
Access means "have the item here right now" not merely "being able to buy the item"
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3 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2010 - 12:10PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Feb 11, 2006
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Well, for one thing, there's no such item as a "Cloak of the Berserker". I don't think you can use Transfer Enchantment to create a non-standard item.
For another thing, as I understand it, what Transfer Enchantment does is move an *existing* enchantment from one item onto another item (as long as the new item is a legal "recipient" for it). You'd need to *start* with a Badge of the Berserker, and then transfer it onto another item (which would be silly, anyway, since the only legal thing you could place it on is another "badge").
The "Cloak of the Berserker" would be more for RP flavor than having mechanical effects. It would still be an item that takes up the neck slot.
I agree with you on the "standard" use of Transfer Enchantment. That's why my earlier post is couched in the language of the CCG, which relies on having access to the item quality, not necessarily possession of the item itself. The way I read it, this creates a significant difference in the way the ritual is used in LFR.
So here's the logic. I'm a level 7 Ranger. I have a +2 Elven Cloak (a level 7 item). By virtue of my level (and pg. 2 of the CCG), I have access to anything level 7 or less in AV2. That includes a +2 Badge of the Berserker (another level 7 item). Since I have access to both items, I should be able to transfer the property from the Badge to my cloak for 25gp, creating a +2 Cloak of the Berserker.
RAW, this should work. RAI, it's admittedly shady. Thoughts?
Access means "have the item here right now" not merely "being able to buy the item"
Does it? That's basically the difference between RAW and RAI in this case.
According to M-W, access is "freedom or ability to obtain or make use of something." That doesn't seem to imply possession. The CCG could just as easily have said "as long as you have possession of an item with the quality.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2010 - 1:04PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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I ran into a unique situation last night, and I wanted to run it by the boards before I went through with it. A guy at my LFR table offered to use Transfer Enchantment to turn my +2 Elven Cloak into a +2 Badge of the Berserker. When I asked him how this was possible, he offered the following from the CCG:
[pg. 9] "You can transfer any magic item quality to another legal item . . . as long as you have access to the quality."
[pg. 9] "You can purchase any magic item that is equal to or less than your level with gold, as long as you have access to it. See "Player Resources" on page 2 of the RPGA Character Creation Guide to determine what magic items and rituals / formulas are accessible by your character."
So here's the logic. I'm a level 7 Ranger. I have a +2 Elven Cloak (a level 7 item). By virtue of my level (and pg. 2 of the CCG), I have access to anything level 7 or less in AV2. That includes a +2 Badge of the Berserker (another level 7 item). Since I have access to both items, I should be able to transfer the property from the Badge to my cloak for 25gp, creating a +2 Cloak of the Berserker.
RAW, this should work. RAI, it's admittedly shady. Thoughts?
Since the ritual requires that you have the two items physically in your grasp for the duration of the ritual, I believe you're out of luck. You'd need to physically have both, ie - bought or found both items. [Edit: To be clear, I don't believe that the CCG re-writes the ritual so you don't need to have the items in your hands ... I believe that in this case, the ritual is as specific as you can get in the "specific overrides general" rule and therefore the CCG would have to be a lot more explicit if it was going to re-write how the ritual worked, up to and including actually providing a different version of the ritual text.]
I agree that the generally accepted interpretation is that you can't transfer from ... say a cloak to a badge ... but the Ritual says "You transfer the magical properties ... into another object." And that it must be the same "type" as the original item. I'm not sure that Cloaks and Badges are a "type" in the same way that swords (Heavy Blades) and daggers (Light Blades) are. And since the Badge of the Berserker and the Elven Cloak don't have anything that says that they are only valid on "Badges" or "Cloaks" in the way that say ... a Dragonscale Armor says it can only on Scale armor, you might be on to something.
But I think it is safest to assume you can't do this. Too much likelihood of table variation.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2010 - 3:25PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Feb 11, 2006
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I'm still on the fence about this, and I think all of the points made on this thread are valid. But to play Devil's Advocate, there isn't one piece of text anywhere that says anything about purchasing or owning the item. Add this to the CCG's text about "access," and there's enough ambiguity to make this move permissible. Since having "access" to items in LFR makes them readily available, I could presumably get my hands on a +2 Badge of the Berserker long enough to perform the ritual.
[And I know what you're thinking: No shopkeeper is going to let me perform the ritual in their store. But if such "shopkeepers" did in fact exist, why can't I just trade my +2 Elven Cloak straight up for a +2 BoB? They both have the same value.]
There are always concerns about table variation, but to be honest, I don't think that the result here is really earth-shattering. I'm simply changing one Level 7 item into another, and gaining a property that's more suited to my character. It seems to me that 25gp is a much more reasonable cost for this than 2,080gp (+2 Badge of the Berserker - 20% of a +2 Elven Cloak).
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3 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2010 - 3:31PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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I'm still on the fence about this, and I think all of the points made on this thread are valid. But to play Devil's Advocate, there isn't one piece of text anywhere that says anything about purchasing or owning the item. Add this to the CCG's text about "access," and there's enough ambiguity to make this move permissible. Since having "access" to items in LFR makes them readily available, I could presumably get my hands on a +2 Badge of the Berserker long enough to perform the ritual.
Even if we took your reasoning on everything else, this is the one area where I don't think you're going to get anyone to "buy" your argument. Heh.
Sure, the CCG doesn't say you have to own the item ... that leaves open the possibility of you transferring the enchantment for a friend (which is as intended). However, if -you- want the item, and don't currently "possess" the item, the only way for you to get one ... is to buy it.
As you said, shopkeepers should never let you cast rituals on their wares, and neither should the GMs.
And I am not touching the lawyerese attempt at redefining "access".
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3 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2010 - 3:33PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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Teh biggest issue at hand is that Elven and Berserker are not the same enchantment. You have to transfer the same enchantment from one item to another. You can't change what it is.
If I have a +1 flaming longsword, I can't transfer it to a spear and make it a +1 viscious spear. It has to be a +1 flaming spear. So how he thinks he can go from +2 Elven Cloak to +2 Badeg of the Berserker when they aren't the same enchantmnbet is beyond me.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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3 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2010 - 4:25PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Feb 11, 2006
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Teh biggest issue at hand is that Elven and Berserker are not the same enchantment. You have to transfer the same enchantment from one item to another. You can't change what it is.
If I have a +1 flaming longsword, I can't transfer it to a spear and make it a +1 viscious spear. It has to be a +1 flaming spear. So how he thinks he can go from +2 Elven Cloak to +2 Badeg of the Berserker when they aren't the same enchantmnbet is beyond me.
That's based on the language of the CCG:
"If you want to make any other change to a magic item, you must use the Transfer Enchantment ritual found in the Adventurer’s Vault and pay the appropriate costs for use. You can transfer any magic item quality to another legal item or add a quality to a magic item that does not have one, as long as you have access to the quality (see the Transfer Enchantment ritual for more details)."
"See “Player Resources” on page 2 of the RPGA Character Creation Guide to determine what magic items and rituals/formulas are accessible by your character."
I've said this above, but the logic goes that since I have "access" to a +2 Badge of the Berserker, I can transfer its enchantment to overwrite +2 Elven Cloak for 25gp plus the difference in cost between the two items (which is, in this case, 0). Again, it seems that 25gp is a much more reasonable cost for this than 2,080gp.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2010 - 4:48PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Feb 11, 2006
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I just thought of an alternate reading, using the market price. Based on LFR "access," there's presumably a place that would offer both magical items and Transfer Enchantment rituals. Also, based on LFR "access," there are an infinite number of +2 Badges of the Berserker at said place. So I pay the market cost, trading my +2 Elven enchantment for the +2 BoB one.
Does this seem more legitimate?
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