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3 years ago ::
Mar 27, 2010 - 3:26PM
#21
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I do it find it interesting in all of the replies that no one mentions that the DM should have fun while DMing.
In most of the responses, the DM is responsible for facilitating the players having fun although nothing is said about the DM enjoying himself or herself as well.
So to all that replied, do you all view DMing as a chore, that is a necessary evil for the LFR community to stay alive?
Also what is your views on players that never DM, even though some of those players are hugely experienced and well versed with the rules of the game?
Some players understand that the DM plays too, and make adjustments accordingly. Even just not using cards will make some DMs happy.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 06, 2010 - 2:14AM
#22
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Even just not using cards will make some DMs happy.
This.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 06, 2010 - 2:16AM
#23
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So recently I ran SPEC 2-1 P1 for a game day. Most of the players were repeat players and only a couple never played the adventure.
I ran the adventure once before for one of the players with another group which was sad to say very ranged deficient. As the DM I decided to have a very popular and colorful NPC that was accompanying them cast a quick ritual to give them a swim speed. At this time I felt that the PCs needed this bit of help considering that I knew the challenge ahead was very difficult for their party. One of the PCs was a ritual caster and further enhanced the party by giving them water breathing.
This turned a 50/50 TPK encounter into a challenging, but easier encounter than originally designed. To challenge the players in the final encounter, I gave one monster an action point. No elite status, just gave it an action point. The final encounter was much more challenging and the players felt accomplished.
When I recently ran SPEC 2-1 P1 for the same player, he was expecting the rituals and seemed upset when they were not granted. At this time the party had 3 ritual casters, all of whom could have some of those rituals, but neither of them casted them. When combat started his character was trashed from the opening salvo of the enemy and when his turn came he ran from combat and dismissed himself from the table. Reasoning stated that the encounter was clearly a TPK and impossible and that it wasn't any fun.
I don't feel that I did anything wrong from my point of view. I adjusted the module within DME to fit the group at my table in both cases in order for the groups to have fun. SPEC adventures are also suppose to be challenging and test the limits of your character, especially at the Paragon levels.
Would at this point make this a poor choice of DME or just an upset player?
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3 years ago ::
Apr 06, 2010 - 4:30AM
#24
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2005
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You did fine. It is odd though that none of the other players felt like casting any supporting rituals.
Gomez
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3 years ago ::
Apr 06, 2010 - 5:57AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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Was the NPC that cast the ritual the first time with them the second time? Is it a spoiler to say which NPC this was because I don't recall an NPC going with the characters in the module.
I don't think that the player is entirely out of sorts for their reaction. It is why DME is such a fine line to walk. If a player comes to expect that a DM will "always" make the module easier and no, the "always" back there wasn't a mistake, then they are going to be let down when you decide not to. This is something that can be partly fixed by you telling your players when you're adjusting stuff and why (even after the fact) so that if and when you don't do it, they don't feel like now you're out to get them.*
I suggest talking this out with the player and telling them what you were thinking and how you felt things were going to work, and see if you can smooth things over a bit. It would be a shame to have them feel like if you don't DME things down-challenge from now on that you're trying to TPK them.
* I'm not suggesting that you're out to get them.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 06, 2010 - 7:58AM
#26
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Date Joined:
May 29, 2004
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You did fine. It is odd though that none of the other players felt like casting any supporting rituals.
Gomez
In that adventure, I don't think it's odd that nobody wanted to cast rituals. When I played the adventure, and I wanted to cast a ritual (and I'll avoid spoilers, but it was one that made the adventure substantially easier), there was a very long discussion about whether or not to cast the ritual due to the time-sensitive nature of the mission and the casting time of the ritual. The deciding factor was that my character (in character) put his foot down and more or less said, "if you don't want to wait ten minutes for me to cast this, you can go find yourselves another healer, because I'm not going in there."
I should also note that the combat immediately following the point where you would cast the rituals has the distinction of being my least favorite combat in LFR due to it having the perfect storm for grind.
Spoiler:
Show
Dazed from the trap that activates every turn, prone from the monsters, restricted movement ability due to swimming, and (depending on which rituals were cast) lowered attack rolls due to swimming? No thank you.
John du Bois
Living Forgotten Realms Writing Director, Netheril story area
Follow me on The Twitter: @JohnduBois
Follow my presence on The Intertubes: johncdubois.wordpress.com
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3 years ago ::
Apr 06, 2010 - 12:17PM
#27
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I should also note that the combat immediately following the point where you would cast the rituals has the distinction of being my least favorite combat in LFR due to it having the perfect storm for grind.
Spoiler:
Show
Dazed from the trap that activates every turn, prone from the monsters, restricted movement ability due to swimming, and (depending on which rituals were cast) lowered attack rolls due to swimming? No thank you.
This is one of those encounters that changes drastically depending on whether or not you have the right caster with the right ritual. A lot of people don't buy rituals even when they can cast them on the (IMHO, mistaken) opinion that they are never useful.
However, having a ritual caster just happens to tag along may be a bit much. If I were judging I'd probably drop hints that water combat was very possible and remind people that anyone can cast a ritual from a scroll - with the added benefit that it takes half the time of the ritual.
Allen.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 06, 2010 - 12:24PM
#28
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Date Joined:
May 29, 2004
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I should also note that the combat immediately following the point where you would cast the rituals has the distinction of being my least favorite combat in LFR due to it having the perfect storm for grind.
Spoiler:
Show
Dazed from the trap that activates every turn, prone from the monsters, restricted movement ability due to swimming, and (depending on which rituals were cast) lowered attack rolls due to swimming? No thank you.
This is one of those encounters that changes drastically depending on whether or not you have the right caster with the right ritual. A lot of people don't buy rituals even when they can cast them on the (IMHO, mistaken) opinion that they are never useful.
However, having a ritual caster just happens to tag along may be a bit much. If I were judging I'd probably drop hints that water combat was very possible and remind people that anyone can cast a ritual from a scroll - with the added benefit that it takes half the time of the ritual.
Allen.
Our group cast the right rituals, Spoiler:
Show
both Waterborn and Water's Gift were running, thanks to my insistence and it was still a senseless grind due to the other factors described in my earlier post.
John du Bois
Living Forgotten Realms Writing Director, Netheril story area
Follow me on The Twitter: @JohnduBois
Follow my presence on The Intertubes: johncdubois.wordpress.com
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3 years ago ::
Apr 06, 2010 - 12:44PM
#29
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Our group cast the right rituals, Spoiler:
Show
both Waterborn and Water's Gift were running, thanks to my insistence and it was still a senseless grind due to the other factors described in my earlier post.
At least you weren't losing healing surges every time you were hit. 
There are a couple other mods out there which do something similar. Like sending your PC to another dimension round after round.
But what should a DM do? Change the environment? Give hints as to what to expect? Ignore the fact that the bad guys have fly/hover and ranged 20 attacks and are insubstantial if you have a mostly-melee based party?
Slogfests are not fun. I may "forget" that an attack can knock dazed targets prone or reduce the chance to hit for the attack that dazes but we aren't supposed to ignore traps because we don't like them. OTOH it's not a good sign when the DM tells you at the start of combat to remember that he didn't write the mod, because it's going to be long and stupid.
Allen.
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3 years ago ::
Apr 06, 2010 - 1:05PM
#30
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Date Joined:
May 29, 2004
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Our group cast the right rituals, Spoiler:
Show
both Waterborn and Water's Gift were running, thanks to my insistence and it was still a senseless grind due to the other factors described in my earlier post.
At least you weren't losing healing surges every time you were hit.
There are a couple other mods out there which do something similar. Like sending your PC to another dimension round after round.
But what should a DM do? Change the environment? Give hints as to what to expect? Ignore the fact that the bad guys have fly/hover and ranged 20 attacks and are insubstantial if you have a mostly-melee based party?
Slogfests are not fun. I may "forget" that an attack can knock dazed targets prone or reduce the chance to hit for the attack that dazes but we aren't supposed to ignore traps because we don't like them. OTOH it's not a good sign when the DM tells you at the start of combat to remember that he didn't write the mod, because it's going to be long and stupid.
Allen.
I suppose shame on me for derailing this thread from the DM discussion and toward an adventure/encounter design discussion.
I ran the encounter in question once. That party was very well-built, and had no problems with the encounter as written (although with the updates to Blood Mage, it's likely that the story would have been quite different). If I had to run it again with a party that wasn't as crazy good, I probably would have had the monsters fight in close quarters with the party, and possibly modify the dazing element in the way that a previous author had. The closer combat would have taken some of the other issues away as well.
And yes, in a party consisting of almost entirely melee combatants, most of the insubstantial creatures probably would not be flying 20 and hovering. I'd likely save that for the last one or two once they realize that the party is mostly melee - after all, with things like sorcerors that cast spells through daggers and Arcane Implement Proficiency out there, you really have no idea what that tiefling will be able to do with that sword...
John du Bois
Living Forgotten Realms Writing Director, Netheril story area
Follow me on The Twitter: @JohnduBois
Follow my presence on The Intertubes: johncdubois.wordpress.com
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