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3 years ago ::
Mar 04, 2010 - 7:33AM
#171
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2007
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I cant recall the number of times I survived or didnt survive playing up in LG.
And working together as a group to the benefit of all in the group isnt fun to you?
4e is not 3x. "Not hitting" but "always getting hit" is not fun, and higher APL = higher defenses.
Dan Anderson
@EpicUthrac
Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Meet me at TotalConfusion:
http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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3 years ago ::
Mar 04, 2010 - 2:57PM
#172
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2005
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I have unfortunately had to play a 3rd level character in a level 4-7 module played on High twice just so tables could make . And I was a Great Weapon Fighter and had no problems really. Its all about knowing how to play your character and how to work with your team.
Now had we had APLs that would have been an APL 8 module and I couldnt have played but they could have elected to play Low (approx APL 6) and I could have played within the rules etc.
A new player playing a 1-4 module on High would be about the same as playing an APL 4. But with the APL's there could be anyone from 1st thru 7th level also playing at the table. APLs open up a wider range of play options for everyone, not just new people.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 04, 2010 - 3:17PM
#173
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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I have unfortunately had to play a 3rd level character in a level 4-7 module played on High twice just so tables could make . And I was a Great Weapon Fighter and had no problems really. Its all about knowing how to play your character and how to work with your team.
I didn't say I couldn't make it work personally. As someone who played a Monk 2 with a Wis of 8 in an LG core special at APL 4 and was easily the 2nd most valuable member of the party or who played a Rogue 1/Ranger 1 who took down 3/4s of an encounter all by himself at APL 4, I'm sure I could play up in LFR and contribute.
I said it wasn't fun. .There's a distinct difference. Especially when the person in question is new to LFR and/or 4e and doesn't know how to play their character or work with their team. They get to sit there being confused while nothing they do is effective and/or getting ordered around by the experienced players so as to not get killed.
That's how to convince new players to not come back...
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3 years ago ::
Mar 04, 2010 - 5:54PM
#174
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2005
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That exact same player is going to have that exact same problem whether he is playing an APL 2, 4 or 6 or 20 module. The problem you are describing is a problem with the player.
What going back to an APL type system does do is provide for people, new or experienced, to play at a table. If you have say 3 level 5 or 6 players they have no choice but to play a 4-7 module. So if Joe Noob wants to sit at the table he cant play because the way the level bands work in LFR. This same problem keeps the 3 5th level characters from playing a 1-4 module with Joe. But with the APL system they could all play and the table could make because they could all play the module at APL4.
APL 2 - Playable by Character Levels 1-5 (5)
APL 4 - Playable by Character Levels 1-7 (7)
APL 6 - Playable by Character Levels 3-9 (7)
APL 8 - Playable by Character Levels 5-10 (6)
APL 10 - Playable by Character Levels 7-10 (4)
H1 - Playable by Characters Levels 1-4 (4)
H2 - Playable by Characters Levels 4-7 (4)
H3 - Playable by Characters Levels 7-10 (4)
I figured I would provide that little chart so those that arent familiar with the APL system will have something to base their opinions upon.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 04, 2010 - 6:17PM
#175
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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That exact same player is going to have that exact same problem whether he is playing an APL 2, 4 or 6 or 20 module. The problem you are describing is a problem with the player.
Yes, and that tends to happen when you're new to a system. Like many new players of LFR...
But with the APL system they could all play and the table could make because they could all play the module at APL4.
They do have a choice - they can have new characters to play. Sure, they might not enjoy playing new characters, but they'll come back knowing that they will eventually play that 4-7 mod. The player new to LFR might wonder at the stupidity of it and decide to not come back.
A lot of new players to LG did just that...
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3 years ago ::
Mar 04, 2010 - 6:20PM
#176
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They do have a choice - they can have new characters to play. Sure, they might not enjoy playing new characters, but they'll come back knowing that they will eventually play that 4-7 mod. The player new to LFR might wonder at the stupidity of it and decide to not come back.
Because writing up first level character number 20 is soooo much fun. 
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3 years ago ::
Mar 04, 2010 - 6:38PM
#177
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2005
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Why make the others make all brand new characters and put off playing module X when if we had the APL system they could still play the module and so could the Joe Noob?
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3 years ago ::
Mar 04, 2010 - 7:44PM
#178
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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Because writing up first level character number 20 is soooo much fun.
You have 20 level 1 characters? And you can't get one to Paragon? What is wrong with this picture? 
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3 years ago ::
Mar 04, 2010 - 9:21PM
#179
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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They do have a choice - they can have new characters to play. Sure, they might not enjoy playing new characters, but they'll come back knowing that they will eventually play that 4-7 mod. The player new to LFR might wonder at the stupidity of it and decide to not come back.
Because writing up first level character number 20 is soooo much fun.
Honestly, they need to suck it up. You've got players who won't judge and won't help new players have an enjoyable experience. They need to realize that RPGA is not just about them individually having a good time.
Why make the others make all brand new characters and put off playing module X when if we had the APL system they could still play the module and so could the Joe Noob?
Because the 3 experienced players know they'll eventually have a better time with their high level characters. Joe Noob just has this mod(or maybe one or two additional ones) to compare. He has a bad time, he's likely not coming back.
I have no sympathy for those players. I just spent 3 months having an enjoyable time of making sure that a new player to our group had a good play experience. That meant the group ate a lot of mods to make sure we weren't replaying. It meant we rotated DMs and everyone DM'd. It meant I had to keep track of what level everyone's character was. And it meant a lot of us delayed paragon tier play for it.
And hey, it worked out fine and we've got a much better group for it.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 04, 2010 - 9:37PM
#180
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Moderator Note:
There doesn't seem to be much in the way of constructive discussion going on any longer in this thread. Positions have been stated, and now we've gotten to the point of re-stating those positions repeatedly, and some borderline flaming of others' positions. I'm going to leave the thread open for now, but, unless the thread does return to some sort of actual discussion, I'll be asking to have it closed in a day or so.
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
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