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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 11:16AM
#21
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Of course, that would have gone quite differently if the DM had just had a cube engulf/uproot the standard and move on. Even if the warden had stayed standing there to enforce the standard and get an opportunity attack, it still wouldn't have been all that much more effective than a come and get it from a fighter. Of course, the two together are where it's really at 
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 12:52PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Jun 26, 2003
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The AV Battle Standards are pretty clear in their wording:
"Any character in or adjacent to a battle standard's square can remove it from the ground as a standard action."
Generally speaking, when the rules use "character" instead of "creature", they're doing that on purpose to indicate something intended for PCs.
RAW. Character. PC = Player Character. NPC = Non Player Character.
They might allow the term "character" to stand in for "PCs" where you play, but in my neck of the woods, "character" means any character; PC or NPC. A baby dingo, an angry mosquito, your character's mother in law - all non player characters that could remove the battle standard.
Of course, it's a little weird that a baby dingo and an angry mosquito could remove the standard, but that's the way it's worded, and that's the way it works. (Again, in my neck of the woods.) Maybe they just tap the magical "uproot" button on the thing.
I find there's a lotta variation between areas on how rules are interpreted. For example - swordmages wielding fullblades using free actions to switch from holding it one handed (weapon useless but gaining +3 AC) to wielding it two handed (attacking with it and gaining +1 AC) - particularly assault swordmages. Some say it's fine, some say it's literally against the rules. Fun, eh? I got a million of these.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 4:05PM
#23
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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Battle Standards are ok if they are a random item a PC picked up. They are just horrid if the PC at all planned around it. When I see a Battle Standard of Healing pop down on the mat I usually tell the players that they think the monsters are likely to remove it on the next available turn. I let them reconsider their action if they would like. I don't buy the "creature" argument, though I welcome a CS ruling otherwise.
I only feel this way because as a player I have been amazed by the way such an item toned down the threat (and enjoyment!) of otherwise challenging adventures. I don't care for them as player or DM. As a DM, the standards have never done anything... they were gone the round they were placed on the board.
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips! Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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3 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2010 - 11:30PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Dec 18, 2008
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Of course, that would have gone quite differently if the DM had just had a cube engulf/uproot the standard and move on. Even if the warden had stayed standing there to enforce the standard and get an opportunity attack, it still wouldn't have been all that much more effective than a come and get it from a fighter.
Of course, the two together are where it's really at
Gelatinous cubes have an Int of 1 and operate off tremorsense. I think the DM was reasonable in having the cubes attempt to move towards moving targets instead of an inert standard planted in the ground. Besides, once planted firmly in the ground, what is to say that the cube passing over it would do anything other than pass right by. The standard has resist 50 to all damage when in the ground, so the acid from the cube wouldn't eat through it. I see no rules support for the cube uprooting the standard since the standard is not a creature. Although if a DM ruled differently, I would accept his ruling at his table, even if I would do differently.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 18, 2010 - 12:41AM
#25
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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Of course, that would have gone quite differently if the DM had just had a cube engulf/uproot the standard and move on. Even if the warden had stayed standing there to enforce the standard and get an opportunity attack, it still wouldn't have been all that much more effective than a come and get it from a fighter.
Of course, the two together are where it's really at
Gelatinous cubes have an Int of 1 and operate off tremorsense. I think the DM was reasonable in having the cubes attempt to move towards moving targets instead of an inert standard planted in the ground. Besides, once planted firmly in the ground, what is to say that the cube passing over it would do anything other than pass right by. The standard has resist 50 to all damage when in the ground, so the acid from the cube wouldn't eat through it. I see no rules support for the cube uprooting the standard since the standard is not a creature. Although if a DM ruled differently, I would accept his ruling at his table, even if I would do differently.
"When the Battle Standard activates, the mound of jelly suddenly stops. It leans away from the standard, as if sensing the healing energies coming from it. Then it pivots and races toward it, as if to make the energies stop. The cube slams into the standard, pulling it from the ground."
I would just use the same crazy logic that lets PCs drop an ooze prone.
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips! Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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3 years ago ::
Feb 18, 2010 - 5:58AM
#26
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Gelatinous cubes have an Int of 1 and operate off tremorsense. I think the DM was reasonable in having the cubes attempt to move towards moving targets instead of an inert standard planted in the ground. Besides, once planted firmly in the ground, what is to say that the cube passing over it would do anything other than pass right by. The standard has resist 50 to all damage when in the ground, so the acid from the cube wouldn't eat through it. I see no rules support for the cube uprooting the standard since the standard is not a creature. Although if a DM ruled differently, I would accept his ruling at his table, even if I would do differently.
The standard in question is actually pulling the cubes towards it, quite forcefully. They'd be well aware of it. Their job for centuries has been to clean the floors. Hey, look, some trash on the floor. Further, the oozes are commanded by an extremely intelligent creature. And there is no restriction on requiring hands or something similar to be able to remove the standard, just that it provokes opportunity attacks when it does so.
Now, a particularly evil DM might note that a battle standard only has resist 50 while deployed, so such a party might want to not simply entirely bypass the cubes and leave them to digest this bizarre wood and cloth creature that attacked them. I'm actually not evil, so I wouldn't bother to mention that, but still - the hungry blade standard was described as trashing the encounter and it sounds like all it would do is some forced movement and maybe the equivalent of a round of lost actions.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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3 years ago ::
Feb 18, 2010 - 2:32PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Dec 18, 2008
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Given the obvious limitations of the standard in any encounter with creatures of even moderate intelligence and the ability to grasp something with hands or jaws, I don't see what the problem is with the magic item having a powerful effect on this one very particular arrangement of creatures. Perhaps you and I just have a very different conception of what it means to be intelligence 1, commands from an outside source or not. In any event, what language are these commands given in? and what gives the cubes the ability to understand and process these commands?
Also, the standard alone did not wreck the encounter. It was certainly a boon. The combination of the standard, the bard immobilizing the cubes with bolas (there's the real head scratcher if you ask me), and the visions of avarice (another head scratcher... why are cubes attracted to inorganic illusionary treasure piles). All three of those effects combined to keep the cubes 80-90% out of the fight. The standard alone would have just bought us a round to get through the door. If I were a DM frustrated with the power or application of that standard and felt like DME'ing something a bit off the normal rules, I would have declared that the cubes could not be immobilized by bolas and that they were unaffected by visions of avarice since they are blind and uninterested in non-motile, inorganic material.
Also, Alpha, we're talking about the hungry blade standard, not the healing standard. Also, the cubes only listed sense is tremorsense. By my understanding of the rules, they have no capability to detect anything that is not moving.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 18, 2010 - 3:42PM
#28
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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I'm still not seeing any reason it can't pick up that battle standard. It's a creature that does nothing else _but_ pick stuff up off the floor and carry it along. You can't argue it can't tell the standard is there, because the standard is the thing pulling it next to it and being a hard object up against the side of its quivering mass To go on even more exact, it isn't blind. It can actually see as well as use tremorsense. Further, tremorsense doesn't require moving objects or creatures. It works on any object or creature that is touching the ground. If it helps, you can assume that footfalls and such of everything else shake things enough for identification, or that the cube sends its own tremors into the ground. But, yes, you can do some odd things like use a bola against a cube. I don't think using Hungry Blade against gelatinous cubes sounds excessively effective. Kinda cool and certainly effective in some situations, but not too bad. The worst excess I've heard on battle standards of healing was a non-LFR group where apparently someone carries around 20 of them so he can stack their auras. At least, I hope they were talking about a non-LFR group.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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3 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2010 - 10:25AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Dec 18, 2008
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Yes, I remember reading some foolishness about a standard that was part of an item set that provides resistance to all damage equal to the number of items from the set that are carried... some talked about carrying 20+ of the standards. That is the kind of crap that deserves to be squashed.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 21, 2010 - 11:04AM
#30
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However, my avenger's passive perception was high enough (high DC because of module fluff)...
The DCs in the mod are the DCs in the monster entries in their original sources. It's not "because of module fluff".
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