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3 years ago ::
Feb 09, 2010 - 10:20AM
#51
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2008
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I didn't say I won't accept those sources. I said, from my experience, more often than not, power gamers "forget" to print out legitimate documentation. Or, in some cases, I have seen a CB printout that lists a power name without a description of the power. No description and I certainly do not have to accept the claimed use rules for the power.
That isnt power gamer behavior at all. That describes more twink or munchkin behavior. All the power gamers that I have met and know, build their characters to the point it is beyond suspicion, beyond reproach, everything documented and validated so when the "Pain is Brought" and people at the table say WOW, how did you do that?, how they did it is clearly laid out.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 09, 2010 - 11:36AM
#52
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Hey, now, properly attribute those quotes.
Sorry, fixed it. I removed the wrong quote tag.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 10, 2010 - 9:56AM
#53
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2001
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I didn't say I won't accept those sources. I said, from my experience, more often than not, power gamers "forget" to print out legitimate documentation. Or, in some cases, I have seen a CB printout that lists a power name without a description of the power. No description and I certainly do not have to accept the claimed use rules for the power.
That isnt power gamer behavior at all. That describes more twink or munchkin behavior. All the power gamers that I have met and know, build their characters to the point it is beyond suspicion, beyond reproach, everything documented and validated so when the "Pain is Brought" and people at the table say WOW, how did you do that?, how they did it is clearly laid out.
Well, even twink or munchkin isn't really right.
The guy who makes up stuff about powers and deliberately does not have the source book to verify isn't a munchkin, twink, or power gamer.
He's a cheat.
If he's willing to cheat over stuff like that, he's likely going to cheat in other ways even if you do require printed books at the table. The solution in his case, once identified, is not to play with that person again.
-karma
LFR Characters:
Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard
Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard
Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
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3 years ago ::
Feb 10, 2010 - 4:36PM
#54
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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@Ferol on the overall subject, our job as RPGA/Organized Play/Etc. judges is to run the game in a fun way. We are also told which rules must be followed, and we must follow them. If there is a rule, we must follow it. If the rule is ambiguous, or no rule exists, then we should make a ruling and the table must abide. If a player shows up with the Dice of Auspicious Fortune, and you don't like them (as I don't), well, you still have to allow them. You do. The rules support them. It is easy to want to rule on an item/power/etc. in an RPGA game the way we would at a home game, with our common sense. However, our common sense is not the same as that of the rest of the table. I would never abuse MYRE, other people think it is funny and cool to do so. I think the old Rod of Reaving and Corruption was fine, some thought it was horribly broken. In the end, by abiding by the rules we create a better game where players can understand how the game (and their builds) will work, even as they disagree about it. If, instead, the judge tries to push their worldview over that of the players, this will often create tension and reduce enjoyment. It makes the RPGA game undependable. It is possible that one person's cheese is so amazing that it reduces the enjoyment of other players. In that case, address that specific issue, not the rule in question. Instead of houseruling Twin Strike, let the player know that the rest of the table doesn't like it being used repetitively. Have a frank discussion of the effect on the game and ask the table for a solution (rather than imposing a solution yourself). One of the biggest reasons DMs try to nerf things is because they are concerned about challenge. No such concern should exist. This is a separate question and should be asked separately. IF the table is requesting a challenge, provide one using DME. If that is not sufficient, ask them if they want you to make additional changes beyond DME. Don't nerf them assuming it is what they want. A last point on this. There are very few truly horrible players in terms of people out to cheat. Very few. There are many with builds that are overly cheesy, but they have a full right to be at our tables. Again you ask them if they want a challenge and let them explain how you can provide that for them. If what they want is to destroy the adventure as written, then give them the table you want, the same way you would give a table that loves RP more time with NPCs and more latitude in how to handle skill challenges. You are there for them, not for you.
With Dice of Auspicious Fortune, there is a RAW case to be made that you can't use more than one of the same item per day(because they follow the rules of how character powers work unless otherwise stated,
A few of us had a late-night conversation with Mike Mearls about the issue of using more than one of item x in a day/encounter/whathaveyou. He saw the issue, but it is clearly supported by the rules. From what he said, I suspect they are unsure what to do. In some cases it is cool, especially if everyone is reasonable. In some cases it is horrid, especially if people are unreasonable. The dice are horrid just as a single set, let alone as two or more.
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips! Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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3 years ago ::
Feb 10, 2010 - 4:41PM
#55
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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If you want to use a rule from Primal Power, bring Primal Power, not a printed page from a PDF you found on the web.
LOL
I haven't brought a single book to the table (either as player or DM) in over a year.
Agreed. I haven't brought a book to a convention table since 4E began. There is always one somewhere, if needed, and I have the compendium on my phone, but it really isn't necessary.
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips! Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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3 years ago ::
Feb 10, 2010 - 5:25PM
#56
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Date Joined:
Dec 23, 2009
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If what they want is to destroy the adventure as written, then give them the table you want, the same way you would give a table that loves RP more time with NPCs and more latitude in how to handle skill challenges. You are there for them, not for you.
The more I visit this forum, the more I'm convinced to increase my local LFR group's GM shortage.
For those people that do GM under these conditions, please, tell me why. I don't get it. I really don't.
I came to these forums to learn more about 4e and LFR. I'm becoming convinced that I should go dig out my copy of shadowrun and put D&D on the memory shelf. I've had fun at the local game store but this... this doesn't sound like fun.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 10, 2010 - 5:51PM
#57
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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If what they want is to destroy the adventure as written, then give them the table you want, the same way you would give a table that loves RP more time with NPCs and more latitude in how to handle skill challenges. You are there for them, not for you.
The more I visit this forum, the more I'm convinced to increase my local LFR group's GM shortage.
For those people that do GM under these conditions, please, tell me why. I don't get it. I really don't.
I came to these forums to learn more about 4e and LFR. I'm becoming convinced that I should go dig out my copy of shadowrun and put D&D on the memory shelf. I've had fun at the local game store but this... this doesn't sound like fun.
I don't think alphastream meant "destroy" as in, ruin the story or the author's vision, I think he means in the form of overcoming any challenge that the combats or skill challenges might have presented to non-optimized/cheese-y players. I think he means that, if the players like not having a challenge, give them that game. After all, does it matter if the villain loses after 5 rounds or 2 turns? They get defeated either way. Go ahead and finish the game after 2 hours and go home and get a drink/ice cream/whatever.
I -will- disagree with his last statement though. As a GM, we are not blind servants for the players. I do not, and never will subscribe to that viewpoint. However, there's a difference between having fun by running a game with players and running a game and having fun at the -expense- of players. And in that sense, I will agree that if you find it no fun to run a game for such players as would have fun "destroying" mods ... feel free not to. But maybe you can find a way to have fun with that sort of player(s) ... it just might not be the sort of fun you're used to.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 10, 2010 - 6:15PM
#58
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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The more I visit this forum, the more I'm convinced to increase my local LFR group's GM shortage.
Two things
1) Why in the world would anything on the forums affect how (or whether) you play?
2) LFR-style D&D is not the best game for everyone. There's no shame or stigma in this simple statement of fact. for some people it is "the best game I can imagine", for some it is "the best I can manage", for some it is "good enough, barely", for some it is "not my cup of tea", and for others it is "ewwwwwww gross".
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3 years ago ::
Feb 10, 2010 - 6:16PM
#59
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2001
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Yeah. Giving the players what they want isn't necessarily the same as giving them everything they ask for.
Some tables want hardcore, take no prisoners play. They want the hardest challenge, they want to have to bring their "A" game to survive, they want the punishment. Give it to them.
Other tables want to be casual. They're playing to have an enjoyable relaxing four hours, and don't really care that much about precise rules or mortal combat. Again, give it to them.
The trick, of course, is to read the players. Sometimes they don't say what they mean. You may have to discern what they find enjoyable from context.
There is one major difference between RPGA DMing and just DMing a regular home game. You often have to be much more flexible. In a home game, DMing how YOU want is up to you, hard or soft, precise or loose. In an RPGA game, you may have to adjust your DMing style to match the players. This is especially true at conventions where you get different players from four hour play slot to four hour play slot, all different and often folks you've never met before.
-karma
LFR Characters:
Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard
Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard
Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
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3 years ago ::
Feb 10, 2010 - 6:22PM
#60
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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I think at some point the message behind my post got lost somewhere. Let me try again.
In prior threads whenever a glaring imbalance is brought to light there is a fairly vocal faction that believes that errata and rules fixes are not the answer. These posters supports the idea that players should be responsible, restrain their urges to be cheesy, and generally not be jerks. This faction has suggested not judging for or simply not playing with the types of problem players I described in my original post.
To me this just isn't reasonable.
What would you do if this problem player was your spouse, girlfriend/boyfriend, family member, or roommate. Expecting social pressure to deal with shortcomings in the rules/design doesn't seem fair because ultimately you're asking us as players to choose between keeping peace with our friends and playing this game.
I insist that weak rules do need to be addressed. If something is clearly broken (i.e. Rust Monsters/Avengers/whatever) I refuse to believe that fixing it is ultimately hurting the game because in the end I would gladly cart around a thousand pages of errata/CCG if it meant the game was finally fixed and I wouldn't have to argue with my fellow gamers about this stuff anymore.
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