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Switch to Forum Live View Weak Rules and Troublesome Players
3 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2010 - 2:20AM #1
Ferol_debtor_of_Torm
Date Joined: Jun 10, 2004
Posts: 852
This is sort of a branch off of the rust monster thread. Many people in that thread mentioned simply not playing with people that like to exploit weak areas in the rules regardless of how clearly it is not intended to work that way. What should we as players and judges do when those types of players are the majority? How populous do those players have to be before it's easier to fix the rules than it is to fix the players.

A guy who I play with regularly and I were talking on the way home from a game. He mentions that the Ring of Personal Gravity is completely broken. I ask him for an explanation. After he does so I am confused. The item is good but certainly not broken. He explains his interpretation of the rules (I'll leave looking up the item to you guys).

He believes that the immobilize is essentially permanent once it is applied since the only listed duration is one the player using the ring controls. I understand where he could get this idea but that is clearly not how the item is intended to function. I tell him that our disagreement fortunately doesn't matter because no one in our area has the ring. He clarifies that he just bought it. I tell him how I intend to rule on the subject, that I believe the immobilize ends when the afflicted creatures are no longer adjacent. He insists it does not. He is technically right.

I go on to repeat how I will be ruling on the subject (this is important as I judge about three times as often as he does). He gets indignant and begins quoting the CCG on how judges are to handle the rules. Again, he is technically right.

I tell him he is welcome to not play, that no other player will have a problem with my ruling. He gets more indignant insisting that I cannot make such a ruling.

This brings me to a crossroads. This person is not someone I can simply not play with. He is someone who is, and will be, involved in many of the games in my area. Judging games for him will become a constant battle.

Social pressure to not use the ring will not work. He admits it is broken and looks forward to doing so. I cannot trust this player to 'police' himself. This is also not an isolated incident. Before this ring there were at least half a dozen other clearly broken things that he has insisted on abusing before they were fixed.

How should I deal with this person and the dozen others like him in my regular gaming circle?
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2010 - 2:40AM #2
sjp
Date Joined: Aug 21, 2007
Posts: 8

If you are going to find DMing a chore and a potential source of argument and division, the easiest and most obvious answer is NOT to do it. Stop being  a DM. If a player sits at your table and you don't want to DM for them, just walk away.

You volunteer your services as a DM. There are many reasons you might do that but to expect a long rules argument is not one of them. 

Only DM for the people you want to DM for. 

If every time he sits down at your table, you walk away i expect the message will come over load and clear.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2010 - 3:04AM #3
Mind_Flayer_Monk
Date Joined: Dec 5, 2005
Posts: 658
Well if an animal bites you its not the animals fault. Its the trainers fault.

Your going to just say you are ruling it that way at your table. When he gives you whatever argument he gives you, your just going to have to listen and say "I hear you, but this is the decision I have made for how things are going to run. It may change in the future, but for now that is how its going to work."
 
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2010 - 5:04AM #4
bons
Date Joined: Dec 23, 2009
Posts: 786
The inability of a player to hear the word "No" should not stop you from saying that word or enforcing that word.

If these players are the majority in an area, it may well be because they've driven everyone else out, leaving the organization that's supposed to be an ambassador and an introduction to the game filled with people who don't leave the best impressions at the table.

If it's become a majority problem as you say, you may want to talk with your heralds and DMs and make sure you are all on the same page. This isn't going to work if you don't share the same goals and ideals. One thing to keep in mind is that your members aren't going to be happy when they go to a convention or any other larger RPGA gathering and suddenly all they're hearing is "No".
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2010 - 6:11AM #5
Thanlis
Date Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Posts: 837

I really strongly sympathize with this, having had my own issues with intolerable players and having been unsure how to handle it.

Talking with the rest of your DM pool and your organizer is certainly indicated. It sounds a bit like you're not sure you'll get much support, but it's worth trying -- you might not be the only frustrated person. If it's a problem for everyone, you can collectively fix it. 

Saying "no" once is likely to have a pretty impressive effect, if it's coming from the organizer of the event. If the organizer is part of the problem, a number of his DMs saying "sorry, don't want to run any more" is also likely to have a noticeable effect. As a small-scale organizer, I promise it would get my attention. You, as DMs, are invaluable. 

I'd also recommend, well, starting this thread. I am pretty firmly of the opinion that the biggest issue facing the campaign is the lack of social ties. The regions are too big for the triads to really know what's going on in any individual play group, and there's not as much crossover between groups as it seems there used to be. That means that divergent social norms such as accepting abusive play can develop locally with little to no inhibition from outside. This is definitely something that the globals need to be thinking about. (And I expect they probably are.) Threads like this help them understand the scope of the problem.  

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2010 - 6:17AM #6
SYB
  • Conversation Stopper
Date Joined: May 19, 2004
Posts: 1,561
Personally, I would be even more blatant.  I would explain to him that he is trying to abuse the rules based on his interpretation and that this isn't the first time he has done so.  I would explain to him that I have no interest in DMing for a player like that and if he is going to continue to argue my rulings or try to abuse every possible rules loophole that I am no longer willing to run games for him.  From what you have said, there are other DMs in the area, but you are one of more active ones.  This will not prevent him from playing LFR, but it will restrict his options.  If other DMs are equally willing to make a stand, it will severely hinder his options.

Certainly, he can enjoy the game any way he wants and abusing rules loopholes (within reason) is a way that some people enjoy the game.  I can think of someone in my area with a Dhampyr Warforged of broken.  But, from experience, despite a little bit of rules abuse, he plays responsibly with other players and he is respectful of the DM.  As soon as a player chooses to fight tooth and nail to be abusive, even when the DM has ruled to the contrary, the player no longer is holding to the social compact.  Expel him, without thinking twice.

-SYB
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2010 - 6:23AM #7
Keith53
Date Joined: Aug 21, 2007
Posts: 1,282


While I would not use the word "permanent,"  I think I agree with the other gamer that the intent of the rule is for the enemies (not marked) AND yourself to stay slowed or immobilized the same length of time.  So long as you are willing to stay personally slowed or immobilized, you could keep those enemies also.  When you feel the pressing need to move, you free yourself and them of the condition at the same time.

Is that broken?  How tolerant are you to having your character slowed or immobilized?

To your greater question, if the players won't accept as DM you must interpret and apply the rules for the game to work, then you should not DM for them.

Keith
Keith Hoffman
LFR Writing Director for Waterdeep
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2010 - 6:35AM #8
GrahamWills
Date Joined: Mar 16, 2006
Posts: 400
Here is what I like to do for any similar situation:
  • State my interpretation of the rules.
  • Listen to any other opposing interpretation.
  • Make a decision, and clearly state it, explaining my reasoning.
  • If this is the first time the player has brought this situation up, or if it makes a major difference to their character, then, for this adventure only, allow some sort of halfway position.
  • Tell them that if they get other information -- like an official ruling -- that supports their position, I will allow it, but based on current info, I will not.
  • Allow no discussion while gaming
  • Afterwards, discuss if I feel I need to

So for this case I would say "It appears that the immobilize is meant to work only while the target is adjacent to you. I cannot think of another item that puts a permanent condition on another character, and if there were one, it would definitely cost more than 45,000. I understand you bought this thinking it was more powerful, so for this mod, I'll make it a 'save ends' effect for both marked and adjacent characters. Afterwards, feel free to decide whether or not you want to keep it, but I'm going to run it in future as only working on adjacent characters while they remain adjacent to you."

Then I would listen to the explosion, and reply "I hear what you are saying. If you find some other official source with more info -- say an email from a wizards expert -- please let me know. Until then, I'm going to rut as I said. Now, let's not delay the game with rules questions any more -- the dragon is immobilized, save ends and decides to waste his breath only on you as he cannot move away. Then he'll attempt to make his save"

To recap: First make it clear you have listened to the person; second, make a decision and make it clear there will be no more discussion; third, re-direct them to an expert whose decision both sides will accept. Fourth, be friendly -- find a way to soften the decision until the injured party has a chance to fix it.

Good luck ! 

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2010 - 9:36AM #9
Drezden
Date Joined: Mar 6, 2003
Posts: 752
I'm curious as to what your interpetation of the Ring's power is?  Because when I read it it appears thad adjacent enemies are immolibized (or slowed) no save.  Of course, as Keith mentioned, so is the player.  However, if the PC and effected enemies were no longer adjacent (due to teleport powers or forced movement) I think the enemy would still be immobilized.  It doesn't say must remain adjacent.

More generally, I think in LFR 4.0 a DM should try and rule "questionable" rules interpretations in favor of the players.  The game is about them (and you) having fun -- let them have fun with their toys.  It is not the LFR DM's job to correct cheesy rules or interpretations. 

Now, if something was clearly WRONG - i.e. the power says I attack Fort, but I'm going to use Reflex, well that is different.  But that is not the case here -- unless you tell us something different.  Let the guy have his fun and move on.

Daren

Feb 6, 2010 -- 2:20AM, Ferol_debtor_of_Torm wrote:


[snip]A guy who I play with regularly and I were talking on the way home from a game. He mentions that the Ring of Personal Gravity is completely broken. I ask him for an explanation. After he does so I am confused. The item is good but certainly not broken. He explains his interpretation of the rules (I'll leave looking up the item to you guys).

He believes that the immobilize is essentially permanent once it is applied since the only listed duration is one the player using the ring controls. I understand where he could get this idea but that is clearly not how the item is intended to function.[snip]
How should I deal with this person and the dozen others like him in my regular gaming circle?




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3 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2010 - 10:09AM #10
Keithric
  • Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 5,151
If you chose to slow an enemy, and the slow went away as soon as they were not adjacent, then that slow would be almost meaningless as their speed would restore as soon as they took the first step away. A ruling that it stops when not adjacent feels like one made not because the rule is weak, but because the rule as written is _abhorrent_. The item being broken in the hands of a swordmage or other character who can teleport all about is a bad thing, certainly, and a good reason to submit it for errata.

*goes to check if that's been done yet* Nope.

Okay, now it is.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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