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3 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2010 - 12:15PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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I'll admit that I don't see how it's abusive
In the face of all the other things that can be done, no it's not that abusive. But it is in the face of the base 4E retraining rules.
In the same way that the ability to retrain a feat at all is 'abusive' compared to not doing so? I suspect that people might just have a lower threshold for what is abusive than I do. I notice that sometimes for cries of 'broken' too.
I've said it before, but when I DM what I really care about is that people have characters that are legal and possible. Now those characters will occasionally have a +1 to AC/Reflex or +1 to attack and damage over a character that couldn't retrain as thoroughly as the previous CCG, but I don't expect it to drastically change the play experience. I actually imagine that most people won't even notice other people doing it. One of my characters started with 17/15/13 and I think one person only noticed it once in 11 levels.
I think it ought to be very noticeable. The issue isn't whether or not someone starts with a 17/15/13 or a 16/16/12/12 - it is that now everyone should have effectively started with a 17/15/13 from 4-7. In effect, it is as if everyone started with a base 18, but isn't suffering the downside of poor secondary and/or tertiary stats for doing so. Which means not just one character is going to have a bump at the table, but likely everyone but maybe one or two people will.
4-7, 11-14, 17-20, and 24-27 tier mods just got a lot easier...
NETH4-1 Containing Shadow (co-author) Handbooks
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3 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2010 - 12:15PM
#42
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I really detest this updated rules. It makes the "Living" part of the campaign a hollow shell -- essentially the only real facts about your character are his name, race, and level. Anything else is up for grabs.
Nope - you're not even required to keep your character's name.
I hate to be pessimistic, but it's all about money. People aren't going to rush out and buy all the latest splat books if they can't redo their entire character to take advantage of all the exciting new toys...
Lori Anderson
WotC Freelancer, LFR author
@LittleLorika
CALI3-3 The Agony of Almraiven (co-author)
NETH4-1 Containing Shadow (co-author)
CALI4-1 Plain of Stone Spiders (author)
QUES4-1 Liberation (co-author)
EPIC5-1 Plaguewrought Prism (co-author)
TotalCon: http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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3 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2010 - 12:35PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2001
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Wow, I was thinking a full retrain maybe once or twice a year, perhaps when new CCGs are put out, but every damn level?
Color me astonished.
...
I suppose when people ask me what class my Bard character is, I can say "Yes" and REALLY mean it now.
-np
LFR Characters:
Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard
Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard
Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
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3 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2010 - 12:54PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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Ya know. Maybe, and this is just a maybe, they know that the March 2 update is going to involve some pretty hefty changes. (It certainly covers a lot of books.) And this is level of freedom in retraining is to prepare players to handle the inevitable changes that have "OMG totally ruinated my character!"
... now go to, conspiracy theorists!
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3 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2010 - 2:18PM
#45
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After this, I think it is only a matter of time before LFR players are given the option of starting at a higher level than 1. Not necessarily a pick any level you want thing, but maybe something like if you choose you can start at level 11 (begin. of paragon tier). My completely uninformed opinion is that some sort of limited "higher level than 1 start" will happen before the end of the year. Daren
There's a lot here that I agree with. Not sure that I detest the rules update, but LFR has systematically stripped everything that makes a living campaign ... well "living" since it started. All we need now is to strip the "Characters must start at level 1" requirement out and we're more or less at the Mark of Heroes/Legacy of the Green Regent style games. I continue to play, I continue to GM, but my excitement with this does drop with each one of these "bowing to the realities" changes.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2010 - 2:42PM
#46
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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It might not be "tightly woven", but in the group I play in most often, personality and history definitely are woven into the plots. In the MINI campaign, our characters are built specifically for the campaign and we adventure in the same group and expect to continue to do so
I did the same thing with our MINI characters. But, when the judge ran one of the MINI sessions, they didn't cope at all with our group makeup. And I definitely don't recall later MINI sessions knowing anything about our characters and reacting accordingly. The MINI campaign is the closest we have to an actual campaign and even it falls far short of what is normal for a DM running a home campaign.
I think it's a little unfair to assume that -- using your phrase -- LFR is little more than a "beer and pretzels" game for everyone. So your argument that radical retraining for pretty much any reason is a good thing seems, to me, based on a very false premise.
Actually, I said it _wasn't_ beer and pretzels, but nor is it the same as a home campaign. Now, those who wish to treat it more seriously have the option to do so. If someone doesn't like the retraining rules, they don't have to use them - and they didn't have to use the once/level retrain or once/character feature retrain prior to this either.
I really detest this updated rules. It makes the "Living" part of the campaign a hollow shell -- essentially the only real facts about your character are his name, race, and level. Anything else is up for grabs. Now, hopefully, sane people will just ignore this ruling (or more likely, just eek out that extra +1 stat and retrain maybe two things this level instead of one), but the message it sends out about the campaign is not a hopeful one:
Given that you could retrain prior to this, you can just do so much more quickly and a small number of additional things now, it's not far different from before. If I look at my fighter at 1st level and 10th level, there's a pretty big difference. Even 9th to 10th was a pretty big difference. 11th too, for that matter. Hmm. Thankfully, his personality and prior actions, what he's done in other modules and with other groups, is still a 'fact' to hang on, and always were the most important anyways.
(PMCs who would have been hybrids if that had been available)
At least they can choose not to PMC now, if they wish. That's notable.
Quickly dashing off replies to other points:
"All we need now is to strip the "Characters must start at level 1""
I believe this was already done in the RPGA previously with the D&D campaigns concept before, allowing people to experience the sweep of a campaign even if they started late or weren't able to play as much as their friends. Was it inherently horrible? Not that it's necessarily well suited to LFR, which has no overriding campaign story and is far more aimed at playing a multitude of characters per player.
"4-7, 11-14, 17-20, and 24-27 tier mods just got a lot easier..."
Really? I thought they just got easier by about +1 AC/Reflex or +1 attack/damage. That doesn't feel like 'a lot'. But, definitely easier. And not something they really needed to do, at that.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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3 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2010 - 3:13PM
#47
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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"All we need now is to strip the "Characters must start at level 1""
I believe this was already done in the RPGA previously with the D&D campaigns concept before, allowing people to experience the sweep of a campaign even if they started late or weren't able to play as much as their friends. Was it inherently horrible? Not that it's necessarily well suited to LFR, which has no overriding campaign story and is far more aimed at playing a multitude of characters per player.
I believe that was my point. And you couldn't experience the sweep of the campaign. If you played here and there you got so little of what was going on that it was tragic. Better to be told you were on a dungeon crawl than trying to insert yourself midplot with no reference into the save the world plot of LGR.
And was it horrible? The end of LGR was. Excruciating. I'm not even sure that the actual ending of LGR was ever written, since the ultimate mod for that series didn't even premier when it was supposed to (at one of the big 3 cons) *. MoH and XE were just sort of meh. I doubt I will play another campaign in that style.
And LFR having no overriding campaign story has, unless I'm misunderstanding the admins/writers goals, been largely a result of there being very little of the game out yet (it's only 18 months out). They seem to be building up arcs, and potentially more continuing stories. But I dearly hope that they do more and if LFR turns out to just be "lots of random adventures for folks to play their stable of characters with" I can see my tenure in LFR being shorter rather than not.
* if my recollection of this dim time in my life is incorrect, feel free to not correct me
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3 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2010 - 3:21PM
#48
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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"4-7, 11-14, 17-20, and 24-27 tier mods just got a lot easier..."
Really? I thought they just got easier by about +1 AC/Reflex or +1 attack/damage. That doesn't feel like 'a lot'. But, definitely easier. And not something they really needed to do, at that.
Well, it isn't a lot per person. But each character is now doing about 10-15% more damage than expected. Over a party of 5, that's almost an extra character wandering around.
And as some characters will inevitably be harder to hurt, they won't go down as easily.
One of the most valuable things in 4e is an extra +1 to hit due to the way that things are balanced. Don't knock 'em...
NETH4-1 Containing Shadow (co-author) Handbooks
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3 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2010 - 3:24PM
#49
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2007
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No AV3 is on the product list for 2010, so probably no reason to list such for that reason. Also no DMG3, but then that would not be a player resource anyway.
Keith
(see RPGA General forum for their product list)
Keith Hoffman
LFR Writing Director for Waterdeep
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3 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2010 - 4:26PM
#50
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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And the saddest thing is that those who really ought most to be allowed to retrain (PMCs who would have been hybrids if that had been available) are pretty much the only ones that cannot get fixed. I guess that's what happens if you chose a role-playing option. In future, just minimax like you're supposed to.
QFT
I'd like to think that those in charge of writing this simply forgot special accommodations for PMCing characters.
At times I wonder if those in charge even play this game.
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