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I'll admit that I don't see how it's abusive

In the face of all the other things that can be done, no it's not that abusive. But it is in the face of the base 4E retraining rules.

Another thing that comes up. Hybrids. If you can't retrain your class and race ... I don't believe 1) you can retrain your PC into hybrids if they weren't already AND 2) you can't retrain which classes you hybridized into (e.g. you're always a hybrid warlock/paladin). Not a bad thing per se, but I wanted to see if others agreed with this interpretation.

Jan 28, 2010 -- 8:03AM, Keithric wrote:

Jan 28, 2010 -- 7:36AM, eudemonist wrote:

Yeah, the odd/even stats thing looks like it could pretty easily be abused, and probably will be.  Don't like it.

I'll admit that I don't see how it's abusive. Quirky, I'll grant, but it's a fairly negligible mechanic difference that lets people not have to worry about or second guess which ability score array they happened to choose at 1st level.

The major difference is that you can now do the following stat array a significant percentage of the time(14 out of 30 levels):
17/15/12/11
instead of
16/16/12/12

When you essentially can donate one point from your 4th stat to bump up your primary stat by one, there's going to be a lot of pressure to do it.

This seems pretty loosey-goosey, but it looks like a more accurate representation of how many people (at least those in my area) play LFR.

I like this bit the best though:

Found magic items: When a found magic item is affected by an official rules update, the player does not receive any "compensation." They can … replace it with a new, legal item of the appropriate type whose item level is less than or equal to the old item’s level.

Isn't that compensation?

Jan 28, 2010 -- 7:21AM, Joe_Shill wrote:

Jan 28, 2010 -- 7:14AM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

Jan 28, 2010 -- 6:30AM, Joe_Shill wrote:

Interestingly, it seems that according to the RAW, you could be from Akanul, but have a background from Windrise Ports.  Which could make some sense in a rp way.  "Oh yeah, my family owns vast tracts of land in Akanul, but I was sent to boarding school in Windrise Ports, and grew up running numbers for a crime syndicate there..."

You can only have one regional background regardless of whether or not you have a benefit from it - you can't be from Akanul and then pick the benefit of Windrise Ports. You could choose to be from Akanul and take the regional benefit and then retrain it to be Born Under a Bad Sign.

"Select a character background. You may choose a character background benefit from any player resource. You may gain a background benefit from your character region (if the region has a benefit listed in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide) or one based on your race, occupation or other background (as listed in Player's Handbook 2 and other sources). However, you only gain the mechanical benefit of one background, not from both your region and another source."

I think you are correct here, and that I misread on first pass. 

Sure? I know FR backgrounds are not player-legal (they are specifically exempt in the CCG), but Dragon backgrounds should be. Seems like you could be from Moonshea and take the Sarifal benefit (or your example—Akanûl/Windrise Ports), because they qualify as from "other sources." You just can't be from Impiltur and take the Aglarond benefit.

Jan 28, 2010 -- 8:26AM, tirianmal wrote:

I'll admit that I don't see how it's abusive

In the face of all the other things that can be done, no it's not that abusive. But it is in the face of the base 4E retraining rules.

In the same way that the ability to retrain a feat at all is 'abusive' compared to not doing so? I suspect that people might just have a lower threshold for what is abusive than I do. I notice that sometimes for cries of 'broken' too.

I've said it before, but when I DM what I really care about is that people have characters that are legal and possible. Now those characters will occasionally have a +1 to AC/Reflex or +1 to attack and damage over a character that couldn't retrain as thoroughly as the previous CCG, but I don't expect it to drastically change the play experience. I actually imagine that most people won't even notice other people doing it. One of my characters started with 17/15/13 and I think one person only noticed it once in 11 levels.

It does mean that one guy I know who started the game during a Weekend in the Realms and did his stat buy like a more 3e-ish one (lots of 14s, with his racial bump bringing his primary to a 17) will perhaps catch up that point in attack he's been missing for the last 12 levels. Maybe even pick up two, depending on how much it's bothered him. But, whatever. It's all a game.

I never would have expected the powers what be to choose this for LFR, but I 100% understand why they did, and I do actually think it's the correct choice for this campaign, because we lack DMs to oversee and modify incoming changes, paths, etc. I actually have effectively played a few home games done this way, and it's never been a problem (my Saturday games, where I DM 2/3 of the time, play 1/3 of the time, has long had a 'If you've got a problem with your character, change it between sessions. That includes stats, paths, everything. Feel free to optimize your stats for your level. For items, talk to the DM and we'll figure it out.' policy). In another game I play, it's almost the opposite - no item changes, very little item control, restricted sources, restricted retraining. And that works too, just requires more planning.

But LFR isn't a tightly woven campaign where your character's personality and history is woven into the ongoing plots, you meet up with and adventure with the same group, you bond with NPCs, lose them, build side interests, etc. It's not a campaign in which you start out off the farm and watch the steady incremental improvement of your character as you follow a specific path of advancement, growing over time in a clear and recorded manner.

It's a lot more about having fun. We sit down with a bunch of other random folks, with semi-random characters, and we find that we've somehow teleported from whatever zany spot we were in last week to a new one this week, where someone's daughter needs rescuing from a lost temple, and we have fun doing it. It's more than beer and pretzels, certainly, but it doesn't need to have the restrictions that a normal campaign does to ensure that every level looks a lot like the previous one. It's better served by making sure that every level is at least as fun as the previous one. No matter what changes may happen.

Jan 28, 2010 -- 11:53AM, GrahamWills wrote:

I think it's a little unfair to assume that -- using your phrase -- LFR is little more than a "beer and pretzels" game for everyone. So your argument that radical retraining for pretty much any reason is a good thing seems, to me, based on a very false premise. 

I really detest this updated rules. It makes the "Living" part of the campaign a hollow shell -- essentially the only real facts about your character are his name, race, and level. Anything else is up for grabs.  Now, hopefully, sane people will just ignore this ruling (or more likely, just eek out that extra +1 stat and retrain maybe two things this level instead of one), but the message it sends out about the campaign is not a hopeful one:

    "Story is less important than stats; continuity is irrelevant. All that matters is that player have the chance to minimax their characters at all possible times. If your character suffers in any way, the next time they level, you can re-minimax her."

There's a lot here that I agree with. Not sure that I detest the rules update, but LFR has systematically stripped everything that makes a living campaign ... well "living" since it started. All we need now is to strip the "Characters must start at level 1" requirement out and we're more or less at the Mark of Heroes/Legacy of the Green Regent style games. I continue to play, I continue to GM, but my excitement with this does drop with each one of these "bowing to the realities" changes.