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3 years ago ::
Feb 07, 2010 - 9:49AM
#111
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2007
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In the interest of full disclosure, how could LG have "major history changing storylines" when the history was never recorded? Yes, to the regional participants, they were (in their mind) making history, but is it a history that can be and will be viewed by anyone on the outside afterwards?
If it was recorded, where is it?
Of course, since WotC is only doing DDI and Novels in the Forgotten Realms, one would need to see impact on future articles, adventures or novels to claim LFR is making impact on canon.
Within a campaign, the history of a region should unfold from the results of adventures (and other stories expressed in novels and articles). Maybe we should attempt to capture the history of a region to make it "real."
Keith
Keith Hoffman
LFR Writing Director for Waterdeep
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3 years ago ::
Feb 07, 2010 - 11:39AM
#112
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2007
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No offense Keith, but to whom else would it matter? Who besides the payers, who would care about such contrivances as "Major history changing story lines" It is just as accurate to say that the LG storyline was "recorded" in its adventures as it is to say that and LFR storylines are "recorded" by making a mention in a novel or some such WOTC publication. They are all works of fiction and imagination are they not? As such, I am not certain I see your point. Needless explanatory rant follows: As I have stated before, the problem is that players, and vicariously their characters, need to feel like they matter. They need to feel that something they do COULD change future storylines. My LG character never made such a contribution, but knowing that it could happen, made it feel real. In LFR their is no such opportunity. To tackle the subject another way, in LG I felt that my story rewards helped define my character. In LFR story rewards are so worthless that I never print them or keep them. In the interest of full disclosure, how could LG have "major history changing storylines" when the history was never recorded? Yes, to the regional participants, they were (in their mind) making history, but is it a history that can be and will be viewed by anyone on the outside afterwards?
If it was recorded, where is it?
Of course, since WotC is only doing DDI and Novels in the Forgotten Realms, one would need to see impact on future articles, adventures or novels to claim LFR is making impact on canon.
Within a campaign, the history of a region should unfold from the results of adventures (and other stories expressed in novels and articles). Maybe we should attempt to capture the history of a region to make it "real."
Keith
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3 years ago ::
Feb 07, 2010 - 12:42PM
#113
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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In the interest of full disclosure, how could LG have "major history changing storylines" when the history was never recorded? Yes, to the regional participants, they were (in their mind) making history, but is it a history that can be and will be viewed by anyone on the outside afterwards? If it was recorded, where is it?
Well, look at Secret History by Procopius.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procopius
Procopius wrote the Secret History, clearly hoping that Justinian would die, so he could publish it. Of course, Justinian then proceeded to live until the very old age of 70. But Procopius tells a very different story about Justinian than the Eastern Orthodox church(where he is a saint)
i.e. just because there is a history and a canon, does not mean all the events that caused that history to exist were recorded. A may have stopped X from taking over country Y, but perhaps that's because X was distracted dealing with pesky adventurers. The pesky adventurers should be able to see how they affected history, but at the same time, there are reasonably clear reasons for why it never made it into the book - the main character(say Drizzt) never at any time ran into the PCs - and the historian recording the story is talking to Drizzt and Drizzt doesn't mention the PCs. X is likely dead, so he's not talking about the PCs either.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 07, 2010 - 1:02PM
#114
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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I have no interest in gaming tie-in books, and would expect that we'll see a RSE--which will potentially make any LFR changes irrelevant--before we see any further Realms campaign sourcebooks (and that's even assuming changes of such significance as to be worth mentioning in a sourcebook). As such, the fact that LFR storylines might be considered canon is to me an interesting curiosity without much meaning.
I would far rather see storylines that actually have an impact on the campaign (which changes something I might care about) than have storylines with minimal significance in the campaign as a whole but are actually reflected in the novels (which I don't care about).
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3 years ago ::
Feb 07, 2010 - 8:46PM
#115
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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In the interest of full disclosure, how could LG have "major history changing storylines" when the history was never recorded? Yes, to the regional participants, they were (in their mind) making history, but is it a history that can be and will be viewed by anyone on the outside afterwards?
If it was recorded, where is it?
Some of it has made it's way into the Wikipedia. The Veluna entry even calls out the campaign slaying of Canon Hazen by former-canon-turned-archlich Herion and the appointment of Priffin Truft as his successor.
And as RSouthard said, it's in the mods and it's in the memories of all who participated in it. At the start of LG we were told everything would be considered canon. The fact that WotC never did anything else with Greyhawk to call all the happenings out doesn't make it any less real to those who lived it.
What are the chances we would see a storyline along the lines of one of the most powerful artifacts in the known world actually being powerless, getting its wielder (one of the few epic level NPCs in exitence) killed, because it was actually incarnated as a small boy following a cursed Paladin in LFR? Most anyone from LG knows exactly what I'm talking about, and those from Veluna even more so.
Again, this isn't a knock against the writers or the writing directors. It's more that we know your hands are tied. I guarantee you and Claire have some great, epic storylines you could do in LFR for Waterdeep that probably wouldn't make it past the FR story team. (don't get me wrong, so far I think you guys have done an excellent job with Waterdeep)
It's a shame they didn't make the campaign set in a different part of the world that's never been touched so the campaign could have more of a free reign. IIRC, doesn't Toril have 4 major continents on it? (not counting Abeir)
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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3 years ago ::
Feb 07, 2010 - 10:40PM
#116
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2005
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Of course, since WotC is only doing DDI and Novels in the Forgotten Realms, one would need to see impact on future articles, adventures or novels to claim LFR is making impact on canon.
Yes, I would hope novels in particular would seek to tie events together, and work with the LFR admins (the WDs, specifically) to make things work together.
Gomez
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3 years ago ::
Feb 07, 2010 - 10:56PM
#117
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2001
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I've mentioned it before, but the reason a lot of players get that "random mercenary wandering around" feeling is that the campaign really does not have a real 'home base' that the characters can rally around and truly care for.
And no, the current Regions don't count. Most characters see their home region maybe 5% of the time, and even then unless the DM makes something up most adventures as written do little to nothing at all to connect with characters from that region.
There's no real 'ownership' stakes for most characters.
Most of the previous successful Living campaigns had either central home areas or factions that the characters belonged to and were intimately linked with. There's a reason for that. It created something for the characters to actually give a damn about.
-karma
LFR Characters:
Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard
Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard
Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
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3 years ago ::
Feb 08, 2010 - 2:29AM
#118
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2008
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Personally I like having the options to adjust my characters, I can't say I've made many changes as yet I probably will do though. I got a bit bored of my pacifist cleric, to much healing in LFR is just wasted, with this I will probably rebuild her into a more traditional radiant laser cleric. Thus making her more fun for me.  Since new books are coming out all the time it makes sense to be able to use the new stuff, without many levels of retraining. I'm very happy with the changes, good stuff! Cheers, Daniel.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 08, 2010 - 4:06AM
#119
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
- Dragon Slayer
- D&DI News Guide
Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2005
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I've mentioned it before, but the reason a lot of players get that "random mercenary wandering around" feeling is that the campaign really does not have a real 'home base' that the characters can rally around and truly care for.
And no, the current Regions don't count. Most characters see their home region maybe 5% of the time, and even then unless the DM makes something up most adventures as written do little to nothing at all to connect with characters from that region.
There's no real 'ownership' stakes for most characters.
Most of the previous successful Living campaigns had either central home areas or factions that the characters belonged to and were intimately linked with. There's a reason for that. It created something for the characters to actually give a damn about.
-karma
Out of sheer curiosity, would you then prefer if, instead of say, 12 regions there were a single central region of some sort all characters started in? Or some in-between option? Or some other option?
Would all mods be in/from that area? Would everything just be "CORE" - set willy nilly around the realms?
Mind, I'm not faulting your ideas - I'm just curious how you'd see something like this done. It's reminiscent (to me) of Mark of Heros and/or Xen'Drik Expeditions - both of which being lines I personally enjoyed.
(and this isn't just for Karma, either, I'd certainly welcome input from anyone willing to share.
Wolf Star76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide  Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter
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3 years ago ::
Feb 08, 2010 - 4:21AM
#120
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2007
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Out of sheer curiosity, would you then prefer if, instead of say, 12 regions there were a single central region of some sort all characters started in? Or some in-between option? Or some other option?
Here is my suggestion/opinion. Core adventures continue much the way they are with adventures released in all tiers and without much overarcing plot. Regional adventures will be completely remodeled. Each Region would write around 4 adventures a year, all released at once. (12 regions, 12 months, one a month) These 4 adventures would be a major quest and cover a plotline, along with being in one tier so they could be played in a row if desired. Then to add a little more regional flavor give an advantage for playing in your "home" region. I am thinking a mild XP bonus. Or maybe for completing a major quest in your home region earns you a special cert.
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