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3 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2010 - 8:07PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2004
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I think it's ironic that it's bad form for the "bad guys" (the monsters) to attack someone when they're down; but the "good guys" (the PC's) do it all the time (with Knockout, Sleep, etc.) and that it's just fine. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, and I think the game works better that way. I just thnk it's funny. Bugbear stranglers, mind flayers, and zombies would never do anything unsporting, but a paladin will always kick a guy when he's down.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2010 - 11:15PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Jan 26, 2005
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I think it's ironic that it's bad form for the "bad guys" (the monsters) to attack someone when they're down; but the "good guys" (the PC's) do it all the time (with Knockout, Sleep, etc.) and that it's just fine. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, and I think the game works better that way. I just thnk it's funny. Bugbear stranglers, mind flayers, and zombies would never do anything unsporting, but a paladin will always kick a guy when he's down.
It's a very different context, though. CDG while under an Oni's unconsciousness breath effect would be kosher, but not while dying.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2010 - 2:30AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
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I think it's ironic that it's bad form for the "bad guys" (the monsters) to attack someone when they're down; but the "good guys" (the PC's) do it all the time (with Knockout, Sleep, etc.) and that it's just fine. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, and I think the game works better that way. I just thnk it's funny. Bugbear stranglers, mind flayers, and zombies would never do anything unsporting, but a paladin will always kick a guy when he's down.
That's what happens when you don't force paladins to be lawful good anymore and give them stats that synergize well with pit-fighter.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2010 - 2:35AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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I would consider it poor form for a DM to go against the DM advice for a fallen character unless provoked to it, such as by powers like Consecrated Ground
It would seem that clerics are the primary targets for CdG, due to their variety of powers like consec ground that make all teammates automatically stay up and active. Since dispelling isn't an option for most monsters, CdG is the only plausible way they have of dealing with most such powers.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2010 - 5:32AM
#25
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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I think it's ironic that it's bad form for the "bad guys" (the monsters) to attack someone when they're down; but the "good guys" (the PC's) do it all the time (with Knockout, Sleep, etc.) and that it's just fine. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, and I think the game works better that way. I just thnk it's funny. Bugbear stranglers, mind flayers, and zombies would never do anything unsporting, but a paladin will always kick a guy when he's down.
The only time I've seen a PC try to attack a monster that was at 0 hp or lower was when it was a troll. When all the world falls down at 0 hp and doesn't get back up, then you don't attack people who are down. Indeed, even when monsters have a way to get back up such as a Deathlock, they go after the creature that can revive its comrades not trying to take extra actions to dismantle the body to prevent it from being used.
Now, using it on a Helpless foe, a creature using it because it literally has no other tactical options or would be punished for taking any other option, or threatening to use it to cover a retreat in normal villain fashion? Absolutely. But proactively CdGing because the monsters no longer care about winning the fight but are trying to take down as much PC gold as they can before dying? Poor form.
Fwiw, I was quite worried last month when I divine sanctioned a burst 3 of monsters then was Critical-ed and dropped that some that were sanctioned were going to CdG me. That's one example where I'd understand it, since sanction persists into unconscious. I'd not have faulted the DM if he'd chosen to - thankfully he didn't 
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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3 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2010 - 6:32AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2009
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How acceptable is it for a GM to use Coup de Grace in your LFR group?
I would normally expect DM's for follow DMG p.40:
"Monsters and Fallen Characters
Don’t hit people when they’re down. When a character falls unconscious, monsters turn their attention toenemies who are still up and fighting. Monsters don’t usually intentionally deal damage to fallen foes."
That said, if say an effect made a PC helpless for a round, I would still expect nearby monsters to try to get the free crit.
If the monsters realize that healing magic is preventing PC's from ever staying down (which is usually how combat is supposed to work anyway), then I would probably first have them try to eliminate the healer before resorting to double-tapping.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I do have a question.
Would you make a distinction between "monsters" and humanoid races? I could see a rage drake losing interest once a human goes unconscious, but I could also see an orc (or elf, or halfing) making the CdG to make sure the meatbag stays down.
From a player perspective, I've been in one situation where my character "died" (and then the DM reversed himself realizing that for the table size, that particular monster should not have been in the fight), and I had not problems with the death.
It's not LG make-a-new-character death. It's simply no-further-xp death. Without that risk of some downside, the fights just seem (looking for a word - uh...) pointless? a grind? If I know that my character might suffer some _real_ penalty (even as minor as forfeiting xp for the adventure), then the fight seems more interesting to me. It's like the difference between playing a game in an arcade, and playing the rom in LAME with unlimited quarters. When you are actually dropping quarters, your performance matters.
"At Gencon 2010, WOTC will announce a new edition of Dungeons & Dragons." - crm(1/2010)
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3 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2010 - 10:40AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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Would you make a distinction between "monsters" and humanoid races?
Naw. The writers often use the term "monsters" to mean "enemies of the PC's". A semantic differentiation does not appear intended here.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2010 - 10:46AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2009
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Would you make a distinction between "monsters" and humanoid races?
Naw. The writers often use the term "monsters" to mean "enemies of the PC's". A semantic differentiation does not appear intended here.
[visualizing the conversation]
"Der, Boss. I knocked one o' dem hero dudes out cold, shoulda I uh finish im off?"
"No Vinnie. You've read the DMG, you're suppose to lose interst in im and move on to someone else."
"But Boss, if I do dat, one of the cleriky guys'll haveim on his feet in no time. Can't I just kill him this once?"
"No. Only heroes kill their enemies. We're the monsters and we just move on."
"Duh. Okay... Yer da boss, but I don't feel like a monster, I feel like a half-orc thug."
"At Gencon 2010, WOTC will announce a new edition of Dungeons & Dragons." - crm(1/2010)
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3 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2010 - 1:05PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
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[visualizing the conversation]
"Der, Boss. I knocked one o' dem hero dudes out cold, shoulda I uh finish im off?"
"No Vinnie. You've read the DMG, you're suppose to lose interst in im and move on to someone else."
"But Boss, if I do dat, one of the cleriky guys'll haveim on his feet in no time. Can't I just kill him this once?"
"No. Only heroes kill their enemies. We're the monsters and we just move on."
"Duh. Okay... Yer da boss, but I don't feel like a monster, I feel like a half-orc thug."
"How many healing surges do you have?"
"Er... der nobody named Serge in our band, boss. Da eye of Gruumsch over there sometimes heals me, but he's Guido"
"No Vinnie, 'healing surges.' Look at your statblock then think back to the DMG"
"Oh yeah. I gots one healing surge. What's dat for anyway?"
"Vinnie, if you've got one healing surge, you're a monster. There are only two kinds of people with stats in this world: PCs and monsters. Monsters get 1, 2, or 3 surges depending on how good they are. I've got two surges. That means I'm the boss monster around here."
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3 years ago ::
Jan 27, 2010 - 1:41PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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"Duh. Okay... Yer da boss, but I don't feel like a monster, I feel like a half-orc thug."
"Vinnie, I already tol' yuz a plethora o' times: there be no semantic differentiation."
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