|
3 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2010 - 12:56PM
#11
|
Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2009
|
However, the DMG recommends against it and as a judge I would only use it in highly unusual circumstances and I won't play with a judge that uses it on a regular basis.
I would prefer to avoid a judge that does this, but as a player you don't always have a choice. Well, you do, but your choice is frequently accept your judge or go home. At a convention you've already paid your entry fee and at some stores you've already paid your entry fee before you find your judge. I think organizers need to address this with their judging group should it become a problem.
Fortunately where I play, the judges don't seem to have any interest in arbritrary CdG, so this isn't a problem for us.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2010 - 1:06PM
#12
|
Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
|
It is not common in the SF Bay area. As far as I can tell, there are two players who occasionally judge at Endgame who follow the "all coup de grace all the time" principle and have every monster drop whatever it is doing to coup de grace the first character to go down in the hopes of getting a kill. It is not common at Endgame, however, and most judges there share Grandpoobah's opinion. There is one frequent judge at Black Diamond Games who offers players the "endgame" difficulty option (AFAIK, no-one has been dumb enough to take him up on the offer) but generally goes out of his way to avoid hitting downed characters (presumably that would change if players specifically asked for it. Given that it is only two occasional judges there, neither of whom have judged for several months, I don't think it's fair to call it the endgame option.
I mostly share Grandpoobah's opinion. I would use coup de grace when the bad guy has nothing else he can do (perhaps if he is immobilized until the end of his next turn (and therefore has no chance to escape by readying an action to charge when he can move) next to a downed PC with no ranged attacks), very occasionally for a hostage situation, if the PCs were going down and getting up every round due to an effect like consecrated ground, or if it seems especially in character for monsters (like ghouls or brain eating horror movie style zombies). And even then, it would be a very ususual situation indeed if I had the bad guys provoke OAs or trigger marks in order to coup de grace a downed character.
The reason that I have mentioned that particular scenario in a couple of threads is not because it is common or because I think it commendable (in fact, I think it is generally poor sportsmanship). Rather, I generally mention it for one of a few reasons:
A. it is probably the most extreme example of DM tactics making adventures more difficult than they would be otherwise.
B. it is a classic example of what I would call "team monster" play where behavior that is extremely advantageous for all of the monsters in an adventure is extremely disadvantageous for the specific monster in question.
C. it is probably the clearest example of how it can be more deadly to have all of the monsters go at once than to have the monstes running on separate initiatives interspersed between the PCs.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2010 - 1:28PM
#13
|
Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
|
I don't generally CdG, but I'm contemplating changing that.
From an in-game POV, after the first time a PC goes from dying to "not even close to bloodied" after one healing word, I don't think it makes much sense for the bad guys to knock a PC unconscious and then count him out of the fight and move on.
From a metagame POV, I'm starting to see player behavior that indicates they're counting on the DM leaving them alone after they drop, such as a squishy melee striker who comes back with limited hit points (e.g., a dying PC who had a healing potion poured down his throat) who stays and fights rather than backing off and playing more cautiously.
I'm considering changing my policy to "One freebie, but the second guy who goes down, intelligent bad guys are going to make sure he stays down."
Then again, I also think NPCs can choose to subdue instead of kill just as easily as the PCs, and intelligent bad guys that bring a PC to negative bloodied can choose that option, rendering the PC unconscious (regardless of any further healing) until after a short rest. I've never had a player argue that interpretation, since winning means "You're right, I can't do that; I guess you're just dead."
I would tend to go out of my way to avoid killing a PC prior to the last combat, since sitting around doing nothing for half of a module isn't much fun and you can generally always come up with a reason why the other side would want to keep the PCs alive.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2010 - 1:31PM
#14
|
Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
|
I'm considering changing my policy to "One freebie, but the second guy who goes down, intelligent bad guys are going to make sure he stays down."
Then again, I also think NPCs can choose to subdue instead of kill just as easily as the PCs, and intelligent bad guys that bring a PC to negative bloodied can choose that option, rendering the PC unconscious (regardless of any further healing) until after a short rest. I've never had a player argue that interpretation, since winning means "You're right, I can't do that; I guess you're just dead."
Both of those match my policy. Monsters aren't idiots; once it's obvious there's healing floating around, they're capable of doing something about it.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2010 - 2:33PM
#15
|
Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
|
How acceptable is it for a GM to use Coup de Grace in your LFR group?
I would normally expect DM's for follow DMG p.40:
"Monsters and Fallen Characters
Don’t hit people when they’re down. When a character falls unconscious, monsters turn their attention toenemies who are still up and fighting. Monsters don’t usually intentionally deal damage to fallen foes."
That said, if say an effect made a PC helpless for a round, I would still expect nearby monsters to try to get the free crit.
If the monsters realize that healing magic is preventing PC's from ever staying down (which is usually how combat is supposed to work anyway), then I would probably first have them try to eliminate the healer before resorting to double-tapping.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2010 - 3:10PM
#16
|
- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
|
I would consider it poor form for a DM to go against the DM advice for a fallen character unless provoked to it, such as by powers like Consecrated Ground, or unable to take another action due to control (immobilize, divine challenge, certain 'cannot attack anyone else' effects, etc). I don't consider "someone could use a heal" as provoking - that's a reason to go after the healer, not to CdG the fallen.
Now, CdG on Helpless? Absolutely.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2010 - 3:19PM
#17
|
|
|
With the minimal penalty for death in 4.0, I don't think CDG is as big a deal. That is, unless it is in the first fight of a mod and someone who died would have to quit. I have never CDG in a mod, but if I did and it was the first combat I would allow the PC to be raised after the fight. No one wants to have to stop a mod half-way or less through.
I do like the idea of at least some semblance of the threat of PC death though. I play in a home game at mid-paragon (16th level) and our DM CDG our cleric last fight -- and he barely (within 3-4 HPs) survived. It was the first time (in 8 levels of play - we started at 8th level) the DM had CDG and I was like "Whoaaa" but it made the fight much more epic and meaningful. It made saving the Cleric and defeating those monsters feel that much better.
Daren
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2010 - 3:31PM
#18
|
Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
|
I play in a home game at mid-paragon (16th level) and our DM CDG our cleric last fight -- and he barely (within 3-4 HPs) survived. It was the first time (in 8 levels of play - we started at 8th level) the DM had CDG and I was like "Whoaaa" but it made the fight much more epic and meaningful. It made saving the Cleric and defeating those monsters feel that much better.
fwiw: I've heard of a DM using a CdG to build up animosity towards a particular BBEG in his home game. But even then it was a rare, memorable exception done mainly for dramatic purposes. Such occasions would be pretty rare in RPGA games.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2010 - 3:52PM
#19
|
|
|
Its fully accepted in my group. For example Aglarond mods the Stone Bears CdG elves.
I normally do not Coup de Grace. But if I read the tactics in a mod and it specifically says the enemy kills PCs, then I do it. AGLA 1-3 and AGLA 1-6 are perfect examples hence in the tactics it says (in short), "Stone Bears hate arcane characters. They hate anyone not human. Kill all non-human arcanist using efficient tactics."
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2010 - 4:12PM
#20
|
Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2007
|
DMs are encouraged to read the DMG (as are authors and Writing Directors). I would not expect a Coup de Grace to be a routine or normal practice. That said, there may be time due to either the situation or the dramatic buildup it might be appropriate. If the PCs are warned up front that Group X is entirely ruthless and the DM is advised to show no mercy in their portrayal, I think it has story merit. If you just see it as a combat tactic to make the adventure more challenging, because you think dead PCs equals fun, then I have some concerns.
Keith
Keith Hoffman
LFR Writing Director for Waterdeep
|
|
|
