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Jan 27, 2010 -- 1:24PM, Keithric wrote:

To be honest, no one should ever use any of those rules. Just design an appropriate monster and give it appropriate abilities. Using PC abilities on NPCs or monsters doesn't fit into some silly 'get X of this, Y of this' box.

I'm glad we can't have 'standard' NPCs in LFR. Less 6d6 strikes at 1st level the better, thanks.

Standard NPCs aren't about 6d6 strikes at first level any more than 4e monsters are about having multiple easily recharging 3d6+condition bursts at 3rd level.

Writers obviously can and have made mistakes with both standard NPCs and monsters. But it would be foolish to write off the standard NPC creation rules (and class template rules) just because some mediocre PC powers can be broken when given to monsters. Writers and editors have to exercise (un)common sense no matter what rules they use to create the monsters.

Jan 27, 2010 -- 2:46PM, Keithric wrote:

Except you don't need them at all. The default option is 'Do whatever you want' and the class creation option is 'pick some stuff from this list'. If you have the same 'Be careful how you do it' restriction regardless of which method you do, you'll always be better off customizing the creature to do exactly what you want instead of searching for appropriate powers, worrying about weapon damage dice, etc.

It's a limitation, not an option, and one that invites people to relax their guard and accidentally create broken things. I'd much rather the blinders were off and people really considered the implications of their monster creation. It's just convenient that we have multiple 'from full hp to dead' powers at 1st level to cite as good reasons not to do it

Maybe so. Still, I think that giving monsters who are similar to PCs abilities that are similar to PCs makes the game more immersive. (For my part, I like it when I see NPCs with greataxes and they are 1d12 with high crit--I like for the visual information about monsters to be meaningful rather than meaningless fluff). And, if used sensibly, the NPC creation rules can quickly create interesting monsters in roles that did not exist before. For example, in one MYRE I wrote, I wanted to have a non-magic using goblin warchief. I wanted him to have abilities that keyed off of his allies and showed him as a leader rather than simply the biggest brute so Irontooth and his ilk were out. And the goblin underboss has got to be the most boring monster ever written for any edition (seriously--hundreds of hit points and an at-will attack for 1d6+3 or so (that lets an ally attack if he misses)with no other special powers), so he was out. But grab the goblin racial stats from the MM and the NPC creation rules and I've got an interesting goblin warlord in 5 minutes. And I also get one whose deviations from the standard monster stats by role and level match up with his visual appearance. Is he speed 5? Of course, he's wearing chain mail. Is his base damage 1d6? He's wielding a shortsword. Etc.