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3 years ago ::
Feb 02, 2010 - 2:28PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Anyone have particular combos that the've seen that should probably be stamped ``Avoid this unless you *REALLY* know what you're doing?''
Well, in the current (updated today) CB, there are 18 hybrids available. That makes... umm... maths... 153 unique hybrid combos. I'd wager that 100 or so of these are excruciatingly terrible, and another 40-ish are merely bad. :P
I've made a go at quite a few, and I find that too many of the powers are removed and covered under Hybrid Talent (and so you can get only one of them) for my taste. So far the only two I've tried that worked more or less as I liked were the Barbarian|Vestige warlock (melee and bursts/blasts) and Barbarian|Ranger (twf).
And frankly, the first can be done with just a Warlock with the right feats, and the second works better as either Barbarian or Ranger (it gets watered down when combining), with maybe a MC feat (in place of Hybrid Talent) and a single power swap feat to get that one power you really want.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 02, 2010 - 3:30PM
#22
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Do us all a favor and not make any Hybrid.
Sign it.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 02, 2010 - 3:36PM
#23
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There is a lot of really cool stuff you can do with hybrids mechanics and flavor wise.
The hybrids allow you to build Cleric | x that are much more representative of the deity. Seems pretty cool to me.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 02, 2010 - 4:36PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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I think the number of bad options is much smaller than that. If only for the reason that there are tons of Str-primary melee weapon wielders and many classes have one or two immediate or minor attack options. The problem areas:
Overlapping stats for defenses when secondary stats don't at all support that. A Druid/Sorcerer as an example. You lose Str or Dex for Sorcerer and you lose Con or Int for Druid.
Druid/Controller. Druid loses 2 at-wills for 1 non-Druid at-will that does roughly what they do.
Striker/Striker(not Ranger). For the most part, they do striker damage a little more consistently, but generally less effectively. Ranger has a lot of interrupts and damage that's not too reliant on specialized circumstances.
Weapon vs. Implement. When you have to switch between a weapon in hand and an implement, this is a problem.
Race. You either want to be human(3 at-wills is amazing here), have a race that gives +2 to both primary stats and/or you're okay with an attack stat of 16 already.
But there are lots of decent starting points if you avoid those pit traps.
Archer Changeling or Drow Ranger/Bards, Barbarian/Wardens, Deva Wizards of Int/Wis, Changeling or Tiefling Wizards of Int/Cha, Warlords/Sorcerers, etc...
NETH4-1 Containing Shadow (co-author) Handbooks
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3 years ago ::
Feb 02, 2010 - 5:56PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2005
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Well, in the current (updated today) CB, there are 18 hybrids available. That makes... umm... maths... 153 unique hybrid combos. I'd wager that 100 or so of these are excruciatingly terrible, and another 40-ish are merely bad. :P
I'm sure that's at least a slight exaggeration. Very few will be "excruciatingly terrible" except defenders with no defenses. About half of the hybrids lose any benefit from their secondary ability score (w/o Hybrid Talent), which leaves them free to have a second primary for their other class. Only a few of the hybrids lose critical class features; the others only lose things that are nice to have.
A lot of combinations may be poor from an optimization perspective, but I think very few are totally non-viable.
"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday BookThe Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 04, 2010 - 6:19AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Sep 24, 2009
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Just to chime in, a Warden|Rogue can also give up both dice of Sneak Attack damage by combining Underhanded Tactics and a new feat coming out in MP2 that adds rattling. Mark, then Riposte strike and now the target gets a -6 to attack allies while a -4 to attack you but incurring your Riposte attack.
I think Hybrids have a wider distribution curve on effectiveness but their average is no more or less than current classes. Combos like Artificer|Barbarian makes my stomach hurt from the laughter though, just because how unexpectedly complementary they are.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 04, 2010 - 10:31AM
#27
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I've been playing a hybrid warlock/paladin (quite heavily these past couple of weeends) that I'm pretty fond of.
From what I've seen, it's one of the few hybrid combinations that seems to have a lot of merit (offering options that straight-classes characters couldn't pull off). The other decent combinations I could find involved cleric or invoker (or both) since neither really loses much from being a hybrid.
The following seem to work well:
- Cleric/Bard (Wis/Cha)
- Cleric/Invoker (Wis/whatever)
- Invoker/Warlock (Wis/Con)
- Bard/Paladin (Wis/Cha)
- Cleric/Paladin (Wis/Cha)
- Artificer/Swordmage (Int/Con)
- Warden/Barbarian (Str/Con)
I'm sure there are many more.
Dave Kay
LFR Writing Director Retiree
dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
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3 years ago ::
Feb 04, 2010 - 10:45AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2008
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I have a Barbarian|Sorcerer that works really well. He is more fagile than a normal Barbarian, but he makes a great Sorcerer, with solid melee options. STR/CHA which works great for a Dragonborn.
What makes me sad - no more compiled magazines: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27580349/Dungeon_and_Dragon_Magazine_PDFs&post_num=24#495423645
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3 years ago ::
Feb 04, 2010 - 11:56AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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I realize I'm the guy who claims 2/3 of the choices are terrible, but I still like the concept. The thing to consider, which I think some of the most serious hybrid detractors miss, is that you have to give something up in order to add versatility. My concern is that in many cases you are giving too much up (hence the 2/3 bad choices), and only have one Hybrid Talent feat, often required simply for armour, to make up for the lack.
Things like Barbarian|Sorcerer are examples of combos that work. You are a less-able melee combatant than a straignt Barbarian, nobody denies this, but you gain either a legitimate ranged option, or a legitimate blast/burst capability to complement your still-valuable melee ability.
Something like Fighter|Paladin is something I'm less happy with. Synergy-wise it looks like it should work out as a nice defender, but right up front you're forced to choose between a) Hybrid Talent (Paladin Armor Proficiency) and giving up any other class features like Combat Superiority, Channel Divinity, or Combat Talent which can't be duplicated by feats, or b) Hybrid Talent (one of the above choices) and several Armor Proficiency feats to catch up.
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3 years ago ::
Feb 04, 2010 - 1:17PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2005
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Something like Fighter|Paladin is something I'm less happy with. Synergy-wise it looks like it should work out as a nice defender, but right up front you're forced to choose between a) Hybrid Talent (Paladin Armor Proficiency) and giving up any other class features like Combat Superiority, Channel Divinity, or Combat Talent which can't be duplicated by feats, or b) Hybrid Talent (one of the above choices) and several Armor Proficiency feats to catch up.
Paladin Armor Proficiency is a terrible choice there--fighters already have scale and heavy shield, so you'd gain only plate. That makes this a great hybrid. Pick up either Combat Superiority or Combat Talent and you have an excellent build that can mark and punish in two different ways, regardless of what your opponent tries to do. Pick up Mighty Challenge to make your Divine Challenge credible. And the obvious abuse is Holy Strike, Marked Scourge, and Pit Fighter--deal +2x Wisdom to a single target with every attack, and +3x Wisdom on an at-will. Fighter|Paladin is one of the best hybrids out there, and one I expect to see a lot.
"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday BookThe Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.
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