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3 years ago ::
Jan 22, 2010 - 6:57PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2004
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I run a home non-LFR D&D 4E game in which the players are in the middle levels of the paragon tier. I also coordinate the public Living Forgotten Realms activities at my FLGS (friendly local gaming shop for those unfamiliar with the acronym). We get 1-2 tables off a week and the bulk of the regulars who come to the store to play on Saturday afternoons are around 5th-6th level.
In my non-LFR home game I have seen the length of combat encounters grow steadily. I won't bog down this thread with the details, but even a cursory search in the 4E forums here will reveal endless dialogue about the length of higher level 4E combats. At mid-paragon tier, our non-boss battles last 1-2 hours each and boss battles last 2-3 hours each. In the heroic tier, our battles were much, much shorter, averaging 30-45 minutes.
It has me wondering about the fate of Living Forgotten Realms as the campaign ages. Will the age-old standard of 4-ish hour game slots even be possible in a 4th Edition Living campaign? Are there any dialogues in progress about this issue?
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"Your life is an occasion. Rise to it." -Mr. Magorium
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3 years ago ::
Jan 22, 2010 - 7:07PM
#2
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I heard a suggestion that high-Paragon and Epic modules (when we get there) should be only double or triple length modules.
I think it's a good one.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2010 - 12:45PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2005
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Some conventions in my area are experimenting with 6 hour slots for Paragon mods, running 2 of them as opposed to the usual three 3 hour slots.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2010 - 5:08PM
#4
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2004
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I have been running a paragon level game for about 6 months now (it started in heroic). I noticed for a while that fights were interminably long, but I also noticed that they have begun to shorten recently as I gained experience running paragon and my players gained experience playing paragon. Right now, I have two players that take reasonably long turns. One has improved noticably and is approaching fast turns. The other still needs a lot of work. Despite that, combats are moving back towards 1-1.5 hours and in some cases a lot shorter.
I think experience is the real key here. Too many DMs and too many players just don't have a good feel for how to play paragon characters or run paragon encounters. Even though 4e has been around for almost two years now, way too many people don't really have extensive experience with it and are assuming that 3e habits and ideas work in 4e. The games are different enough that this leads to slow down. I suspect that as more tables are filled with players who have grown competent with paragon and more DMs get experience running paragon, that the 4 hour slot will fit better.
-SYB
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3 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2010 - 5:25PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2009
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Comparing previous editions will show how quickly and efficiently games run at this level in 4e. And don't get me wrong- I still LOVE 2.x and 3.x games and the cool aspects of those levels. But man, it took FOREVER it seemed.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2010 - 6:31PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
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Comparing previous editions will show how quickly and efficiently games run at this level in 4e. And don't get me wrong- I still LOVE 2.x and 3.x games and the cool aspects of those levels. But man, it took FOREVER it seemed.
Hmmm. I seem to recall running APL 12-18 mods in 4 hours on a regular basis back in LG. And I never had one go overtime by more than an hour or so. On the other hand, every paragon mod I have played has taken at least six hours and that's only level 11. If that's the comparison we're using, it seemed to take forever then. It actually does take forever now.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2010 - 7:13PM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2004
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Comparing previous editions will show how quickly and efficiently games run at this level in 4e. And don't get me wrong- I still LOVE 2.x and 3.x games and the cool aspects of those levels. But man, it took FOREVER it seemed.
Hmmm. I seem to recall running APL 12-18 mods in 4 hours on a regular basis back in LG. And I never had one go overtime by more than an hour or so. On the other hand, every paragon mod I have played has taken at least six hours and that's only level 11. If that's the comparison we're using, it seemed to take forever then. It actually does take forever now.
Makes sense to me. Save or suck and instakills are fast. And, really, that was basically the majority of combat at those levels in 3e. It wasn't fun, but it was fast.
That also seems to be the problem I am seeing players have with paragon in 4e. They are still looking for the "win button". I commonly see players searching their character sheets or power cards looking for that one power that will finish the fight or remove the enemy from the encounter. That is a lot of time wasted (often on the player's turn) for something that usually doesn't exist.
4e combat is more about flow and simply working with that flow towards an end. As players get more used to that, less time is wasted and fights get significantly more efficient.
-SYB
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3 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2010 - 8:39PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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Some conventions in my area are experimenting with 6 hour slots for Paragon mods
While that could work, devoting that much time to single combats would sour me on the game.
I've been able to keep Paragon combats short, but I take some pretty extreme measures:
- Average damage, which goes pretty much unnoticed, and
- Monsters go on the same initiative, which effectively (thanks to delaying and such) allows the players to go in any order they wish... and I generally just go clockwise around the table, skipping (then coming back to) any player that isn't immediately ready. PC initiative is still used to determine who gets a turn before the monsters on the first round.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2010 - 9:03PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2004
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- Monsters go on the same initiative, which effectively (thanks to delaying and such) allows the players to go in any order they wish... and I generally just go clockwise around the table, skipping (then coming back to) any player that isn't immediately ready.
I don't know about that one. So either all of the monsters go first or all of the players go first every time? That sounds like it's going to lead some really one-sided combats. Especially if you make everyone start in the 3x2 rectangle of getting AoE'd to death.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 23, 2010 - 9:32PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2004
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I think experience is the real key here. Too many DMs and too many players just don't have a good feel for how to play paragon characters or run paragon encounters.
I'd be interested to hear any tips you may have on more effectively running Paragon encounters. My home game, which is at the Paragon tier, is really starting to get bogged down during the tactical encounters and I'm open and receptive to any suggestions on how to be a good Paragon DM. With Paragon tier fast approaching for the LFR game that runs every week at our FLGS, I'd like to be as prepared as possible to make those adventures go smoothly.
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"Your life is an occasion. Rise to it." -Mr. Magorium
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