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3 years ago ::
Jan 19, 2010 - 1:39PM
#161
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Date Joined:
Sep 24, 2009
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And PHB2 classes and PHB3 classes aren't anymore brocken than PHB1 classes. So why not allow that one guy to just change his 12th level paladin into a 12th level avenger. After all he only has the paladin because the avenger class was simply not yet exisiting when he started his LFR character and unfortunately he hasn't that much opportunity to play LFR and couldn't affort to waste all the mods already played with his paladin. Or that wizard guy who would have been a sorcerer if the class had been avaible from the start? Or ...
Because no one here is asking nor insinuating that a feature retrain should be allowed for a Paladin => Avenger conversion. When it comes up, we'll look at it on the basis of its merits. And you know what? If it does come up at a point when it makes sense for the game to accept such changes, then it's a good decision to allow such a thing.
Scaremongering about what could happen down the line based on today's paradigm is why the slippery slope argument is blind to its weakness. Used to be, parents wouldn't let their kids play D&D -- not because there was anything inherently wrong with D&D that they could see, but the fact that it practiced magic gave them the notion that their kids were on a slippery slope to actual real ~witchcraft and devil-worshipping~. To make a slippery slope argument is to accept the very same basis of logic as these parents.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 19, 2010 - 1:45PM
#162
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Date Joined:
Sep 24, 2009
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Well, what can you do with a PMC character that you cant do with a hybrid?
You can't make a Genasi wizard with Elemental Empowerment and then take PMC to qualify for Sorcerous Power. This will create a Wizard that deals XdY damage + Int modifier + Str modifier + Str modifier on a majority of Wizard spells.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 19, 2010 - 1:49PM
#163
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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So, while I know the admins are/were discussing this, I decided that since the updates are due soon (the CB/AT Update servers are offline even as I type this), I'd go to the man himself, and ask Chris.
Short version?
Hybrids are being treated like any other new class. If you want to play a Hybrid, they start at level one, and progress accordingly.
By all means - feel free to continue the discussion on whether this should/shouldn't be the case, and the VCL's and I will do our best to capture good points on each side of the debate, but for the moment, this is the ruling we've got.
Well the wrong response is better than no response at all, thanks.
I have no intention of starting a 12th level character over again. I'll just retire all of my PMCing characters.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 19, 2010 - 1:54PM
#164
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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Well, what can you do with a PMC character that you cant do with a hybrid?
You can't make a Genasi wizard with Elemental Empowerment and then take PMC to qualify for Sorcerous Power. This will create a Wizard that deals XdY damage + Int modifier + Str modifier + Str modifier on a majority of Wizard spells.
Ok, thats good. But is it worth 6 feats, 3 stat points(which you run low on since your pumping str), and a paragon path? All to do 2d4+int +2xstr on most of your spells? Which means, you have 1 heroic feat, so give up leather or expertise(which adds to damage in its own right), weapon focus/arcane implement prof, and dual implement casting? You gain, say +4 from PMC sorc, but you just lost as much as 5 damage and 6 feats. In your case, being a hybrid would be leagues better.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 19, 2010 - 2:44PM
#165
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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I have no intention of starting a 12th level character over again. I'll just retire all of my PMCing characters.
This just seems silly to me. You've played them to this point, and they have obviously played just fine up until now. Retiring them just seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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3 years ago ::
Jan 19, 2010 - 2:49PM
#166
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Because no one here is asking nor insinuating that a feature retrain should be allowed for a Paladin => Avenger conversion.
It's the exactly same situation. It's a new option that's much better at capturing the spirit of what was tried to be created in the first place and the only reason why a different class was chosen was because the new class was simply not available at that time. Exact the same situation as with the paragon multi class character to be changed into a hybrid character. Both function exactly as before, yet both have a new option that would have been much better for them if it had been available from their start.
When it comes up, we'll look at it on the basis of its merits. And you know what? If it does come up at a point when it makes sense for the game to accept such changes, then it's a good decision to allow such a thing.
And it makes the player happy and more likely to buy new books. Same merits as converting an PMC-character into a hybrid-character.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 19, 2010 - 2:52PM
#167
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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Well, what can you do with a PMC character that you cant do with a hybrid?
Twin strike your Oath of Enmity target.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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3 years ago ::
Jan 19, 2010 - 3:00PM
#168
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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Take that face!
Yes, these characters are fully functional. They are a bit underpar but I was at peace with that because it was what I had to do to get what I wanted for the characters.
Hybrids gain access to what I wanted for these characters at minimal cost. I was okay with being underpowered when it was the cost to achieve my goals. I am not okay with doing it when it's not necessary.
Imagine if you couldn't retrain from Brute Strike into Lasting Threat.
Imagine if you couldn't retrain from Healing Hands into Devoted Paladin.
Imagine if you couldn't retrain from Nimble Spirit into Sudden Call.
The first time I sit down with a fighter|warlock with Eldritch Strike I will be frustrated. I know it is said that other player's characters shouldn't affect your fun but that simply isn't true. When other characters do your schtick better than you it is frustrating. This is especially true when they do it with the same powers and feats as you. Rather than go through that I would rather just retire these characters and focus on ones that aren't completely invalidated by hybrids.
For the record these are the highest level characters I'm losing:
Basav - Level 8 Fighter/Ranger - Was going to PMC for Twin Strike and Prime Shot.
Juggernaut - Level 12 Fighter/Warlock - Is PMCed for Eldritch Strike.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 19, 2010 - 3:01PM
#169
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2004
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Well, what can you do with a PMC character that you cant do with a hybrid?
Mark up to 9 enemies with Thunderwave (16 with a feat).
-SYB
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3 years ago ::
Jan 19, 2010 - 3:07PM
#170
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2004
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Take that face!
Yes, these characters are fully functional. They are a bit underpar but I was at peace with that because it was what I had to do to get what I wanted for the characters.
Hybrids gain access to what I wanted for these characters at minimal cost. I was okay with being underpowered when it was the cost to achieve my goals. I am not okay with doing it when it's not necessary.
Imagine if you couldn't retrain from Brute Strike into Lasting Threat.
Imagine if you couldn't retrain from Healing Hands into Devoted Paladin.
Imagine if you couldn't retrain from Nimble Spirit into Sudden Call.
The first time I sit down with a fighter|warlock with Eldritch Strike I will be frustrated. I know it is said that other player's characters shouldn't affect your fun but that simply isn't true. When other characters do your schtick better than you it is frustrating. This is especially true when they do it with the same powers and feats as you. Rather than go through that I would rather just retire these characters and focus on ones that aren't completely invalidated by hybrids.
For the record these are the highest level characters I'm losing:
Basav - Level 8 Fighter/Ranger - Was going to PMC for Twin Strike and Prime Shot.
Juggernaut - Level 12 Fighter/Warlock - Is PMCed for Eldritch Strike.
You don't want to play Juggernaut ever again, that is your perogative. But, keep in mind that the fighter/warlock hybrid you play with (I would put money on you never actually sitting at a table with one while playing Juggernaut, but different discussion) can't mark with Eldritch Strike. So, he isn't just better than Juggernaut. He is different. I assume, unless you are doing something very gimmicky, that marking is still important to your character.
-SYB
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