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3 years ago ::
Jan 09, 2010 - 12:29AM
#51
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(Quite frankly, I'm surprised dragonmarks and Ebberon channel divinity feats aren't in LFR).
Technically the CD feats are in, it's just that no LFR character can meet the prerequisites 
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3 years ago ::
Jan 09, 2010 - 12:37AM
#52
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I'd like to suggest that anyone who thought that hybrids weren't going to be legal in LFR at some point was not looking ahead.
It was fairly obvious that they didn't want the hybrid playtest to be legal in LFR because of complaints it would generate. "Hey, those rules changes ruined my character" etc.
I think the only surprise (at least to me) is that hybrids will be legal in January instead of March.
But I'll agree with the other statement that previous PCs don't become bad all of a sudden due to the appearance of hybrids. I've seen a lot of non-hybrid characters utterly trash P1, to the point where being better is basically an act of mast.....well you know what I mean.
But sure, there's power creep in 4e (actually an insane amount of it). Hybrids are just more of that.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 09, 2010 - 12:52AM
#53
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Date Joined:
Dec 18, 2008
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I sense a lot of avenger/swordmages in the coming months that are nigh invincible because you can stack armor of faith and warding.
You can't have both. They both require the Hybrid Talent feat; you don't get them naturally with the hybriding.
Swordmage Shielding Aegis, now there is something that tastes great with anything. Swordlord with Glaive. Smokin. Pact Blade Swordlock. Even bigger shield. But is the level of twink that much crazier than what some people have done with the normal classes?
So I don't sob over hybrids being too powerful; I sob over the loss of roles. When I teach DnD at cons, it really helps people laser in on who they want to be. When I help sort 15 people in to three RPGA tables, I can make sure each table has a leader and balance the other roles. With hybrids, everybody will be a Dood.
Hybrids being broken vs powergamers being broken is irrelevant to me. I look at the hybrid rules complicating the drop-in nature of RPGA games, and I think they should be left out of LFR. Their unfettered versatility belongs only in home games.
My Swordlord will rule.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 09, 2010 - 12:54AM
#54
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You can't have both. They both require the Hybrid Talent feat; you don't get them naturally with the hybriding.
You can get both for if you paragon multiclass. And since this will really send your AC into the stratossphere, that's as serious option
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3 years ago ::
Jan 09, 2010 - 10:07AM
#55
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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I think you mean Hybrid Multiclass.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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3 years ago ::
Jan 09, 2010 - 10:35AM
#56
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I think you mean Hybrid Multiclass.
Yes, I meant hybrid paragon multiclass which grants you a second hybrid talent feat. Take either one at first level, get to level 11, take the second one.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 09, 2010 - 11:05AM
#57
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Date Joined:
Dec 18, 2008
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I think you mean Hybrid Multiclass.
Yes, I meant hybrid paragon multiclass which grants you a second hybrid talent feat. Take either one at first level, get to level 11, take the second one.
There is a huge difference between an Avenger-Swordmage being powerfully broken all the time and a paragon path combo giving you 3 AC for one feat. Other Paragon combos give 100HP of healing or a perma lockdown. My cat can take a feat to get 1 AC.
31AC: 11th Pal in Plate+3 and Heavy Shield takes Armor Specialization
30AC: 11th SM/Av starts at 20 Int in Cloth +3 holds a longsword for Armor of Faith and Swordmage Warding
Wait, that's "nigh invulnerable"?
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3 years ago ::
Jan 09, 2010 - 11:20AM
#58
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And I think the worry about people making worse characters is a valid one. There are many people who play LFR badly, and make really bad characters.
This is a valid concern. If we roll hybrid retraining into the class feature retrain this could solve this problem.
If someone is just starting out and they make something they are not happy with-say a fighter hybrid/rogue half-orc. They think its good at first but it turns out to be ineffective and not really fill a role. Combing the hybrid retrain with the class feature retrain will help these people from getting stuck with a bad character, getting discouraged and then quiting the campaign.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 09, 2010 - 11:34AM
#59
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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I think you mean Hybrid Multiclass.
Yes, I meant hybrid paragon multiclass which grants you a second hybrid talent feat. Take either one at first level, get to level 11, take the second one.
There is a huge difference between an Avenger-Swordmage being powerfully broken all the time and a paragon path combo giving you 3 AC for one feat. Other Paragon combos give 100HP of healing or a perma lockdown. My cat can take a feat to get 1 AC.
31AC: 11th Pal in Plate+3 and Heavy Shield takes Armor Specialization
30AC: 11th SM/Av starts at 20 Int in Cloth +3 holds a longsword for Armor of Faith and Swordmage Warding
Wait, that's "nigh invulnerable"?
Funny that you gave the paladin plate spec but no improved armor of faith or improved warding for the other. The SM/AV with imp warding, greater warding, and imp armor of faith would have 35 AC.
Thats assuming no stances that give defenses, which swordmages and avengers get at really low levels, but paladins dont(Yes Ive done my research). So more like 36-37 is nigh invulnerable at 11th level...
A level 13 soldier(Which is the average you'll face) has +20 to hit which is the most accurate role for monsters and they need 17s to hit this guy. Brutes? Need Nat 20s and cant crit him. Others need 18s-19 to hit him. How is this not a problem? Yes, there is enough power creep as it is, but adding to it doesnt make things better. Even if it seems impossible, we should always strive for balance, instead of giving up as some of the previous posters seem to have done. I really dont want to see every weapon user with twin strike. They nerfed dual strike because it was too good for fighters, but somehow giving them twin strike is ok?
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3 years ago ::
Jan 09, 2010 - 11:49AM
#60
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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For the record:
11th level with +3 armor
Paladin
5 level
3 enhancement
10 armor
1 armor spec
2 heavy shield
31 total
Hybrid Avenger Swordmage
5 level
3 enhancement
0 armor
3 warding
1 greater warding
1 improved warding
3 armor of faith
2 improved armor of faith
6 Int
34 total
Also at level 14 when both these characters have +4 armor and the avenger/swordmage gets his next stat bump he pulls ahead another point.
14th level with +4 armor
Paladin
7 level
4 enhancement
11 armor
1 armor spec
2 heavy shield
35 total
Hybrid Avenger Swordmage
7 level
4 enhancement
1 armor
3 warding
1 greater warding
1 improved warding
3 armor of faith
2 improved armor of faith
7 Int
39 total
But like MFM already said the powers that be are unlikely to change their decision. No amount of math can fix this.
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