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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 4:01PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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Hybrids don't just seem powerful, they are powerful. They show up on CharOp because they are broken. CharOp doesn't jump on stuff because it has 'good flavor'.
Hybrids, by virtue of breaking unspoken rules, have Potential to be broken. There may be specific synergies that hybrids enable.
But the overwhelming majority of the time, they are unworkably bad, not unworkably good. The current limitations are too strict to get anything good out of them. (Except for Faychargers). You'll see them used for Record builds, but those won't point out an AC 10 under par, or some similar vulnerability that makes the character unworkable.
At least with the current rules. We'll see with the new ones.
The builds that work via hybrids work really well. The major issue is that CharOps tends to value being really good at one thing, not two. And given hybrid hasn't been officially published, a lot of people are leery of the rules, knowing they won't be able to play them in a game.
And there are a number of base-line builds that work really, really well. Some classes even should almost always be hybrids(aka Archer Rangers and Wizards with a strong secondary stat due to race) -
Examples:
Swordmage/Wizard - high AC Wizard who functions as a decent defender for a group.
Archer Ranger/Anything with Wisdom as primary stat. Do all the damage of a Ranger while adopting another role at the cost of a feat. Ranger/Shaman who can throw a Spirit Companion into a scrum while blasting away as a Ranger is nearly as good as a Ranger at blasting, but that now adds almost free control.
Paladin/Anything with Strength or Charisma as primary stat that doesn't typically do immediate actions. One feat for Plate+Heavy Shield. A Str Paladin/Melee Cleric with a solid AC by default. Paladin/Sorcerer who can fight in melee.
NETH4-1 Containing Shadow (co-author) Handbooks
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 4:03PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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Really? Then describe it as far as you understand it. Telling me its not an accuarte description doesnt help. As far as I see it Hybridization just makes you better than a normal member of your class.
Ex. Fighter/Paladin
Hybrid Fighter can only mark with fighter powers correct?
Turn 1 DIVINE CHALLENGE as a minor to get around that so you can use a paladin power.
Bad guy in melee will get Combat challenge if he ingores your mark.
Bad guy at Range will get Divine Challenged if he ignores your mark.
Lose/lose for BBEG.
A normal fighter can combat challenge adjacent enemies but can't punish people at range or at even 2-3 squares away if your a reach fighter.
A normal paladin can inflict divine challenge damage on anyone regardless of range but the damage is far less than a MBA from a fighter and the timing issue(interpretted as a reaction by most DMs)
So how is a hybrid not better than a non hybrid?
So... your example uses all Paladin stuff. How is this Hybrid better when you just described a straight paladin? Just because you take MBAs against adjacent opponents that are marked and you didn't use a fighter power to mark them? And? You're burning a minor action to do so instead of just attacking. If this is supposed to show brokenness it's a really bad example.
You can get that now with players that have a Fighter with STR 14 and don't know how to play their PCs. How would this be any different?
Or Paladins who play as strikers... and they're your only "defender." And they don't do striker damage and their AC lets them get hit. A lot.
In an honest question, is there any word on how Hybrid Assassins will be handled?
Nothing official. However, I wouldn't expect to see an Assassin Hybrid until after the PHB3 sees the light of day. We have never seen support for rules that haven't been officially published. Debut content is fully usable previews of content that will be officially published int he future. It's as likely we'll see support for the assassin in hynrods now as we are to see articles for the Seeker or Ardent before the PHB3 is published. Once the PHB3 is out we'll probably see an article in Dragon for Assassin hybrids.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 4:34PM
#43
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The decision has already been made. Throwing logic at the problem won't help.
The only thing we can do now it to start the complaints threads and see if we can get a retrain or ability to work characters as hybrids. Its a fair request.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 6:03PM
#44
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Hybrid doesn't make a class "better" it simply allows the charactor to do more.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 7:13PM
#45
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Hybrid doesn't make a class "better" it simply allows the charactor to do more.
Exactly. Thats why we should be given the option of retraining our PCs into hybrid versions of the class we selected.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 7:15PM
#46
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Hybrid doesn't make a class "better" it simply allows the charactor to do more.
Not quite. The character can do different things. More versatile things. But hybrids do not get everything from both classes, so they do not do 'more'.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 10:18PM
#47
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2004
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I'm underwhelmed by hybrids. There are some really good combinations, but it seems like most combinations lose a lot of the features that make me want to play a character from the class in the first place. Either that or you get a feature that only works half the time.
And I think the worry about people making worse characters is a valid one. There are many people who play LFR badly, and make really bad characters. It's a lot easier to make a useless hybrid character than a useless single classed character. It's also really easy to make a character who doesn't fill any role in a party, becoming super-useless (not that you have to rigidly stick to a role, but you have to contribute something).
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 11:13PM
#48
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Hybrid doesn't make a class "better" it simply allows the charactor to do more.
Not quite. The character can do different things. More versatile things. But hybrids do not get everything from both classes, so they do not do 'more'.
I didn't say Hybrids got everything some Hybrids synergize better than others allowing the PC a broader range of combat options thus allowing the PC to do more than he could with either class by themselves. I don't think PC's should be allowed to retrain either because nothings changed it doesn't provide any new options for existing classes all the hybrid option does is allow very weak Gestalt builds that while watered down still allow the PC to be a highly effective charactor.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 11:38PM
#49
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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I like said, I paragon multiclassed with one character and was working a second toward the same thing. Those characters are drastically inferior to hybrid versions of the same thing. This isn't something I can fix with money/time/retrains. Is any consideration being given to characters in this situation?
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 11:51PM
#50
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This clearly should be part of the class feature retrain. If your a cleric and you would rather be a hybrid cleric then you should be allowed to use your class feature retrain to do such.
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