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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 2:01PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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But hybrids are as bad as gestalts were in 3.5 [...] Pick the best features and powers of 2 classes and make a character w/o any of the flaws/drawbacks of a normal one.
That's not an accurate description at all.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 2:10PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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Really? Then describe it as far as you understand it. Telling me its not an accuarte description doesnt help. As far as I see it Hybridization just makes you better than a normal member of your class.
Ex. Fighter/Paladin
Hybrid Fighter can only mark with fighter powers correct?
Turn 1 DIVINE CHALLENGE as a minor to get around that so you can use a paladin power.
Bad guy in melee will get Combat challenge if he ingores your mark.
Bad guy at Range will get Divine Challenged if he ignores your mark.
Lose/lose for BBEG.
A normal fighter can combat challenge adjacent enemies but can't punish people at range or at even 2-3 squares away if your a reach fighter.
A normal paladin can inflict divine challenge damage on anyone regardless of range but the damage is far less than a MBA from a fighter and the timing issue(interpretted as a reaction by most DMs)
So how is a hybrid not better than a non hybrid?
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 2:29PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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Really? Then describe it as far as you understand it.
Sure.
At any point in time, you can be a crappy member of class X (who's class features are nerfed beyond recognition), or a crappy member of class Y (who's class features are nerfed beyond recognition), but never at the same time. In addition, if you blinked wrong while selecting your classes, your AC sucks.
In exchange for this, you might be able to unlock the occassional synergy that could break the game until errata comes out.
3.5e Gestalt characters were FULL fledged members of class A and FULL fledged members of class B. In 4e terms, they would have double the number of powers, and all the class features of both. That's not the same as a Hybrid character at all.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 2:31PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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Hybrids can be misleading. I think a lot of them show up in char ops discussion because it seems powerful... but the tradeoffs prevent them from really being stronger than other options. As you start looking at the true cost of taking feats to get back the lost powers you end up giving up the ground gained by non-hybrids that take power-enhancing feats. There are some wacky hybrid things out there, though.
I think the issue is currently that Defenders/Leaders by definition have pretty good base class abilities and Strikers/Controllers generally have pretty good powers and limited class abilities. There are also some issues with implements, armor and at-wills. You pick the class that gives you the base abilities and another one that gives you the powers.
As an example, an archer Ranger who picks up Shaman for healing and defensive control(at the cost of one feat for the Shaman at-will option)
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 2:35PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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Ex. Fighter/Paladin
[...]
A normal paladin can inflict divine challenge damage on anyone regardless of range but the damage is far less than a MBA from a fighter and the timing issue(interpretted as a reaction by most DMs)
So how is a hybrid not better than a non hybrid?
Compared to a fighter (Str/Wis)
- You don't have +1 to hit from being a fighter. That's huge.
- You don't get that nice bonus to OA attacks.
- You don't get to mark with basic attacks (thrown javelin), or racial attack powers, or half your class powers.
- You don't get that sandtrap "OAs stop movement" ability
- You only get one Fighter at-will power, which means you're missing a nice control power
Compared to a Paladin (Str/Wis)
- Your Divine Challenge requires an immediate action
- You don't get platemail proficiency
- You don't get Lay on Hands
- You don't get Channel Divinity.
- You only get one Paladin at-will power, which means you give up Power of * synergies
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 3:16PM
#36
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Again, we can't say "LFR is a little easy" on one hand and "I can't survive not being super-optimized" with the other.
I recommend trying to play a newer H1 mod with a "sub-optimal" character - you'd might be surprised.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 3:18PM
#37
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Well, no one can say that it's a surprise that hybrid characters would eventually make it into LFR. Maybe it's a surprise that they'll already arrive in January instead of March, but that they would come was clear. I really hope the admins change their minds and put this concept back where it belongs, in home games, and not LFR.
I think the WotC marketing department might have a word about that 
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 3:28PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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So again, how about we wait and see if anything changed with hybrids, The bridge will still be there after the article shows up, and throwing your characters off it ceremoniously will still have all the impact it has now.
To DME, or not to DME: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous powergaming, Or to take arms against a sea of Munchkins, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;No more;
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 3:29PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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Well, no one can say that it's a surprise that hybrid characters would eventually make it into LFR. Maybe it's a surprise that they'll already arrive in January instead of March, but that they would come was clear.
I really hope the admins change their minds and put this concept back where it belongs, in home games, and not LFR.
I think the WotC marketing department might have a word about that
WOTC didnt have an issue when LG kept Gestalt out of the campaign. And Im not saying that its WOTCs fault. Theyre out to make money, thats all they are concerned with. Im just saying that I trust our admins to do the right thing and just say that Hybrids are not LFR legal. They have done that with a few things before, like the eberron stuff(dragonmarks and what not), why not now?
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 3:35PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
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Well, no one can say that it's a surprise that hybrid characters would eventually make it into LFR. Maybe it's a surprise that they'll already arrive in January instead of March, but that they would come was clear.
I really hope the admins change their minds and put this concept back where it belongs, in home games, and not LFR.
I think the WotC marketing department might have a word about that
WOTC didnt have an issue when LG kept Gestalt out of the campaign. And Im not saying that its WOTCs fault. Theyre out to make money, thats all they are concerned with. Im just saying that I trust our admins to do the right thing and just say that Hybrids are not LFR legal. They have done that with a few things before, like the eberron stuff(dragonmarks and what not), why not now?
LG was able to keep or kick a lot of things out of the campaign (monsters as player characters, psionics, abjurant champion, divine metamagic, etc) that the LFR campaign staff is not permitted to exclude (thus, to use the perpetual example, we now have warforged running all over the Forgotten Realms). I would love it if the LFR staff were able to exclude more items from the campaign, but that's not the way it has worked up until now. (Quite frankly, I'm surprised dragonmarks and Ebberon channel divinity feats aren't in LFR).
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