Ok, if that was so good, wouldnt we see more fighter/wizards with thunderwave? I mean, its cute, inflicting -2 to attacks vs 8 of those 9 enemies. But that doesnt make you good at defending and isnt worth 4 feats and your PP. Esepcially since you can only punish 1 of them. However, a swordvenger can punish their aegis target from far away, and is nigh invulnerable, so attacking him is a waste of an action. Why be another defender? I mean, I already felt sad when my guardian fighter(sword and board) fighting alongside a normal avenger who already had better defenses/hp/ damage/accuracy/ skills/ everything than me. Imagine that same avenger who can now mark and punish that mark target?
It's not hard to mark targets without attacking with fighter powers and Eldritch Strike isn't for using on my turn anyways. On my turn I use a fighter power or in the event that I want to use Howl of Doom, Arms of Hadar, or Summons of Khirad I just use Create Opening or Daring Shout (which he already has).
Hybrids are being treated like any other new class. If you want to play a Hybrid, they start at level one, and progress accordingly.
I don't see this decision sticking.
I predict a full year of Dragon magazine content based around hybrid PC-hybrid feats, hybrid feature options (yes you will be able to mark with all your powers in a future Dragon magazine article), hybrid paragon paths and more. I think this is the bulk of the content they plan to market to us in 2010.
Eventually hybrids and the retraining feature, along with the errata policies are going to have to be integrated into the campaign, and a way to move in and out of hybrid from a normal class is going to be 100% necessary.
Ok, if that was so good, wouldnt we see more fighter/wizards with thunderwave? I mean, its cute, inflicting -2 to attacks vs 8 of those 9 enemies. But that doesnt make you good at defending and isnt worth 4 feats and your PP. Esepcially since you can only punish 1 of them. However, a swordvenger can punish their aegis target from far away, and is nigh invulnerable, so attacking him is a waste of an action. Why be another defender? I mean, I already felt sad when my guardian fighter(sword and board) fighting alongside a normal avenger who already had better defenses/hp/ damage/accuracy/ skills/ everything than me. Imagine that same avenger who can now mark and punish that mark target?
Seriously. Enough hyperbole. Your AC is 1 above an AC-optimized swordmage. Remember that you can only wear cloth, so with identical int, enhancement, Warding feats, etc: Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield: +2 AC and Reflex Leather Armor: +2 AC Coronal Guard: +1 AC
vs
Improved Armor of Faith: +2-3 AC Armor of Faith: 3 AC
You're giving up +2 Reflex, Improved Silver Shield, and Swordshield Action, and an extra feat for +1 AC. It's not even a particularly good trade.
Ok, if that was so good, wouldnt we see more fighter/wizards with thunderwave? I mean, its cute, inflicting -2 to attacks vs 8 of those 9 enemies. But that doesnt make you good at defending and isnt worth 4 feats and your PP. Esepcially since you can only punish 1 of them. However, a swordvenger can punish their aegis target from far away, and is nigh invulnerable, so attacking him is a waste of an action. Why be another defender? I mean, I already felt sad when my guardian fighter(sword and board) fighting alongside a normal avenger who already had better defenses/hp/ damage/accuracy/ skills/ everything than me. Imagine that same avenger who can now mark and punish that mark target?
Seriously. Enough hyperbole. Your AC is 1 above an AC-optimized swordmage. Remember that you can only wear cloth, so with identical int, enhancement, Warding feats, etc: Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield: +2 AC and Reflex Leather Armor: +2 AC Coronal Guard: +1 AC
vs
Improved Armor of Faith: +2-3 AC Armor of Faith: 3 AC
You're giving up +2 Reflex, Improved Silver Shield, and Swordshield Action, and an extra feat for +1 AC. It's not even a particularly good trade.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Swordvenger, level 14 Deva, Swordmage|Avenger, Paragon Hybrid Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Shielding Hybrid Avenger: Hybrid Avenger Reflex Paragon Hybrid Talent: Swordmage Warding Hybrid Talent: Armor of Faith Background: Impiltur (Impiltur Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 13, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 22, Wis 20, Cha 9.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 12, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 8.
FEATS Level 1: Hybrid Talent Level 2: Improved Armor of Faith Level 4: Focused Expertise (Longsword) Level 6: Power of Skill Level 8: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade) Level 10: Student of Artifice Level 11: Improved Swordmage Warding Level 12: Greater Swordmage Warding Level 14: Greater Aegis of Shielding
POWERS Hybrid Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike Hybrid Swordmage at-will 1: Booming Blade Paragon Hybrid: River of Life Paragon Hybrid: Chains of Censure Hybrid encounter 1: Avenging Echo Hybrid daily 1: Aspect of Might Hybrid utility 2: Host of Shields Hybrid encounter 3: Dimensional Vortex Hybrid daily 5: Swordmage Shielding Fire Hybrid utility 6: Fortifying Chant Hybrid encounter 7: Dazing Rebuke Hybrid daily 9: Troll Rampage Hybrid utility 10: Impenetrable Warding Hybrid encounter 13: Light of the Avenging Sun (replaces Avenging Echo)
ITEMS Summoned Feyweave Armor +4, Harsh Songblade Longsword +4, Siberys Shard of the Mage (paragon tier), Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Feystep Lacings (paragon tier), Strikebacks (heroic tier), Circlet of Mental Onslaught (paragon tier), Amulet of Protection +3, Diamond Cincture (heroic tier) ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
This is all gear that is currently available in mods or easily bought, compare this to my guardian fighter.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== HP, level 14 Warforged, Fighter, Warforged Juggernaut Build: Guardian Fighter Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent Background: Akanûl (Akanûl Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 22, Con 17, Dex 14, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 9.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 16, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8.
POWERS Fighter at-will 1: Tide of Iron Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike Fighter encounter 1: Steel Serpent Strike Fighter daily 1: Comeback Strike Fighter utility 2: Bounding Leap Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow Fighter daily 5: Dizzying Blow Fighter utility 6: Strong Focus Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It Fighter daily 9: Victorious Surge Fighter utility 10: Hunker Down Fighter encounter 13: Anvil of Doom (replaces Steel Serpent Strike)
ITEMS Heavy Shield, Mithral Plating Gith Plate Armor +3, Magic Craghammer +3, Vicious Javelin +2, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Greaves of Maldeen (paragon tier), Circlet of Indomitability (heroic tier), Cloak of Survival +3, Diamond Cincture (heroic tier), Gloves of Recovery (heroic tier), Breakchain Tattoo (paragon tier), Summoned Warplate Armor +4 ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
The AC is 3 higher, 5 higher reflex 2 higher will if you consider he didnt take iron will, and -9 fort(Thats also not including the stances that improved defenses w/o drawbacks, like host of shields gives +2 AC/+2 Reflex, which can be solved back so effectively every fight). My fighter can only punish people next to him while the swordvenger can reduce 12 damage from 10 away if the target doesnt fight him. The swordvenger also has effectively +5 to hit on half his powers. How is this defender not better, when his effective ac is 5 higher?
There are a few threads woven in here, but I'd like to post just to the retraining arguments.
I think PMC retraining in to Hybrids should be allowed as it is the only retrain that is done for intent rather than cheese. You needed to struggle to make a PMC fit the dual-class character in your head before. I wanted to make a Swordmage-Warlock for a while but it took too long for her to even feel like the class I wanted her to be. (Now she's benched.)
In that sense Hybrids are the shipping version of the PMC beta. I thought the class feature retrain was a horrible idea; it was changing a character's whole identity in an eyeblink. But someone who went through the pain of PMC'ing should be able to become a hybrid if that is what they wanted all along.
FEATS Level 1: Hybrid Talent Level 2: Improved Armor of Faith Level 4: Focused Expertise (Longsword) Level 6: Power of Skill Level 8: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade) Level 10: Student of Artifice Level 11: Improved Swordmage Warding Level 12: Greater Swordmage Warding Level 14: Greater Aegis of Shielding
POWERS Hybrid Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike Hybrid Swordmage at-will 1: Booming Blade Paragon Hybrid: River of Life Paragon Hybrid: Chains of Censure Hybrid encounter 1: Avenging Echo Hybrid daily 1: Aspect of Might Hybrid utility 2: Host of Shields Hybrid encounter 3: Dimensional Vortex Hybrid daily 5: Swordmage Shielding Fire Hybrid utility 6: Fortifying Chant Hybrid encounter 7: Dazing Rebuke Hybrid daily 9: Troll Rampage Hybrid utility 10: Impenetrable Warding Hybrid encounter 13: Light of the Avenging Sun (replaces Avenging Echo)
ITEMS Summoned Feyweave Armor +4, Harsh Songblade Longsword +4, Siberys Shard of the Mage (paragon tier), Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Feystep Lacings (paragon tier), Strikebacks (heroic tier), Circlet of Mental Onslaught (paragon tier), Amulet of Protection +3, Diamond Cincture (heroic tier) ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
This is all gear that is currently available in mods or easily bought, compare this to my guardian fighter.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== HP, level 14 Warforged, Fighter, Warforged Juggernaut Build: Guardian Fighter Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent Background: Akanûl (Akanûl Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 22, Con 17, Dex 14, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 9.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 16, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8.
POWERS Fighter at-will 1: Tide of Iron Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike Fighter encounter 1: Steel Serpent Strike Fighter daily 1: Comeback Strike Fighter utility 2: Bounding Leap Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow Fighter daily 5: Dizzying Blow Fighter utility 6: Strong Focus Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It Fighter daily 9: Victorious Surge Fighter utility 10: Hunker Down Fighter encounter 13: Anvil of Doom (replaces Steel Serpent Strike)
ITEMS Heavy Shield, Mithral Plating Gith Plate Armor +3, Magic Craghammer +3, Vicious Javelin +2, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Greaves of Maldeen (paragon tier), Circlet of Indomitability (heroic tier), Cloak of Survival +3, Diamond Cincture (heroic tier), Gloves of Recovery (heroic tier), Breakchain Tattoo (paragon tier), Summoned Warplate Armor +4 ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
The AC is 3 higher, 5 higher reflex 2 higher will if you consider he didnt take iron will, and -9 fort(Thats also not including the stances that improved defenses w/o drawbacks, like host of shields gives +2 AC/+2 Reflex, which can be solved back so effectively every fight). My fighter can only punish people next to him while the swordvenger can reduce 12 damage from 10 away if the target doesnt fight him. The swordvenger also has effectively +5 to hit on half his powers. How is this defender not better, when his effective ac is 5 higher?
If you give the fighter +4 armor like you did the Swordvenger, his AC goes up by 2.
I did give him +4 summoned plate as to what he is equipped with. Currently he is wearing his +3 mithral plating, but he could get the +4 summoned plate if/when I play that 1 mod with it. Notice the last item in the item list is +4 summoned warplate.
