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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 9:50AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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Perhaps it's my imagination, but most of the really broken rubbish on Charop involves hybrids. I wonder if the debut rules have tweaked them?
Um... It's your imagination? Most of the really broken stuff doesn't use hybrids. (Orbizard, Ranger/Pitfighter, superchargers, broom builds). The only broken things I see out of Hybrids are Feychargers, and they don't need it.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 9:56AM
#12
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I know 90% of my characters are completely invalidated by hybrids and I have no interest in starting them all over
New and arguably more optimized options do not invalidate your character. I'm confident that you didn't have trouble succeeding in LFR modules in the past - that's not going to change just because hybrids are legal.
Dave Kay
LFR Writing Director Retiree
dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 10:28AM
#13
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- RPGA Senior GM
- The Baldman
Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2003
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I've been saying that for almost a decade now Dkay through multiple conversions but nobody ever seems to believe me.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 10:47AM
#14
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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Hybrids can be misleading. I think a lot of them show up in char ops discussion because it seems powerful... but the tradeoffs prevent them from really being stronger than other options. As you start looking at the true cost of taking feats to get back the lost powers you end up giving up the ground gained by non-hybrids that take power-enhancing feats. There are some wacky hybrid things out there, though.
But, regardless, LFR has always been a campaign that takes all the rules. Hybrids will be in. Some players will cheese them, some will RP them, etc.
I agree that it doesn't change the rest of us... unless the encounter difficulty is upped. So long as we keep things reasonable to the average, the game should play fine for the "old" PCs.
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips! Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 10:59AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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Heh, the whole thing reminds me of the valley girl tv stereotype.. But Daaaaaaad! I know Tootsels is a perfectly fine Chihuahua, but my friend Brittany gets to have a Lhasa Apso so I need to trade Tootsels in for a Lhasa Apso too because else my life will be over! I will be the only one without a Lhasa Apso of all my friends... well that and how often do you get to use Lhase Apso in a post, really  But seriously, I suspect the hybrid rules may have changed a little on some fronts, and its not all that bad as is. We will see some new crazy stuff, we will be be regaled with fresh and original (well ok maybe not so original) tales of woe and it will be business as usual.
To DME, or not to DME: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous powergaming, Or to take arms against a sea of Munchkins, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;No more;
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 11:00AM
#16
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Just wanted to make sure this was clear. With the release of the Debut on hybrids they will be legal, like all other debut content. I was just talking to Chris Tulach about it and thought I should pass it on incase anyone is considering making a new character in the next few weeks.
Artificer will be included in the Jan 19th release but PH3 specific classes will not be in. Also MP2 builds will not be. Those will come out with the release of PH3.
Now can anybody give me a link to the hybrid rules?
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 11:04AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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I would suggest waiting for the, possibly updated, article on hybrids in this months Dragon.
To DME, or not to DME: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous powergaming, Or to take arms against a sea of Munchkins, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;No more;
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 11:52AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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Hybrids don't just seem powerful, they are powerful. They show up on CharOp because they are broken. CharOp doesn't jump on stuff because it has 'good flavor'.
You are right that in many cases Hybrids are only as good, or in some cases worse, than a normal character. However, in other cases they are many times better. This introduces a massive dose of system mastery that was supposed to be dead and gone along with 3.5. Newer players will make a character, play a few sessions, learn about the hybrid rules, and then realize that their character would be so much cooler if he/she were a hybrid.
Yes, hybrids do invalidate my characters. One of my characters paragon multiclassed to warlock to get Eldritch Strike. I want my 4 feats and paragon path back.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 12:00PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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New and arguably more optimized options do not invalidate your character. I'm confident that you didn't have trouble succeeding in LFR modules in the past - that's not going to change just because hybrids are legal.
A player who sits down at a table with someone playing a PC who can do everything his character can do, just as well, plus more, is likely to feel he's no longer really contributing to the group and have less fun. Additionally, if modules are balanced based on new, more powerful character options, new optimized options obviously do decrease the chances of succeeding in LFR modules.
This is, of course, assuming that hybrids are more vulnerable to broken synergies than single-class characters, which seems likely to me.
I have zero faith in WOTC R&D, because their paradigm of what type of game they're creating rules for is different from the game we're playing. These are the same guys who gave us Grasp of the Grave and see nothing wrong with the Dice of Auspicious Fortune. Their philosophy often seems to be that an obvious problem isn't, because any combination that is so broken that no sane DM would allow it is easily corrected by a sane DM.
Unfortunately, the LFR campaign doesn't have one of those.
It's not really the designers' fault, however. Accusing R&D of creating rules that don't work well without a DM to deal with corner cases would be like accusing them of creating rules that don't work well for space combat. They're not really trying to create rules for either case.
Hybrids, by their very nature, will be more prone to corner cases, which does not bode well for their impact upon the campaign.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 08, 2010 - 12:04PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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Hybrids don't just seem powerful, they are powerful. They show up on CharOp because they are broken. CharOp doesn't jump on stuff because it has 'good flavor'.
Hybrids, by virtue of breaking unspoken rules, have Potential to be broken. There may be specific synergies that hybrids enable.
But the overwhelming majority of the time, they are unworkably bad, not unworkably good. The current limitations are too strict to get anything good out of them. (Except for Faychargers). You'll see them used for Record builds, but those won't point out an AC 10 under par, or some similar vulnerability that makes the character unworkable.
At least with the current rules. We'll see with the new ones.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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