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Jan 14, 2010 -- 11:41AM, Ferol_debtor_of_Torm wrote:

Were those who are opposed to allowing a hybrid retrain opposed to the class feature retrain prior to it being implemented?

I was opposed to general 4E retraining, period. Actually, even 3.5 retraining. I came around on 4E retraining because of the massive quantity of choices made as you level - it is a different system than 3.5 and some retraining of powers and so on seems ok. Class feature retrain seems really weird to me, but I can see where others want it. I just like sticking to a PC concept - the personality matters. Now, I see some people doing things like saying that a Battlerager was what they wanted all along, but I could say that for people making a high Con Paladin back in early 4E - they don't get to change their class. Meh. I'm just in the "stick with who you are" mentality.

*Insert Grumpy Old Man from Saturday Night Live voice*
"In my day, we used to be 'n elf. And ye couldn't change yer class, 'cause it was yer race. And ye couldn't change yer race, 'cause it was yer class. And ye cried 'boo-hoo', and ye bled from yer eyeballs, but the dwarf couldn't do it neither, and ye both bled from being killed by yer DM 'cause he was makin' up the rules. And we liked it. We liked it just fine."

Jan 14, 2010 -- 11:41AM, Ferol_debtor_of_Torm wrote:

Keithric and/or Dragon: Any idea on if we can hope to see a decision from the PtB next Tuesday when this goes live?

All we can do is shake the tree.  I would suspect it's somethign that will be discussed among the PtB so my guess is that we won't see somethign when it goes live, but I'll get the poke machine going.

Jan 14, 2010 -- 3:35PM, Alphastream1 wrote:

*Insert Grumpy Old Man from Saturday Night Live voice*
"In my day, we used to be 'n elf. And ye couldn't change yer class, 'cause it was yer race. And ye couldn't change yer race, 'cause it was yer class. And ye cried 'boo-hoo', and ye bled from yer eyeballs, but the dwarf couldn't do it neither, and ye both bled from being killed by yer DM 'cause he was makin' up the rules. And we liked it. We liked it just fine."

Which reminds me of:

www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0222.html

Jan 15, 2010 -- 9:35AM, RCanine wrote:

Jan 12, 2010 -- 7:34PM, Ferol_debtor_of_Torm wrote:

Hybrids also have ridiculous flexibility with their implements, something other characters (especially multiclassed characters) have to otherwise invest feats into or use specific magic items to compensate for.

No one yet has mentioned that this flexibility is indeed ridiculous, and emphasizes one of the most poorly-defined section of the 4E ruleset. If they do not introduce clarification on how weapons as implements work along with hybrids, than I'm in favor of anything that discourages them. Builds like the disrupting whip controller or the polearm momentum wizard make absolutely no sense and the game is worse for them.

The basic idea of flexible implements isn't that bad - a hybrid should not have to buy two implements to use all their basic powers. The issue is when one implement clearly isn't designed around being easy to use as another kind of implement.

Given that mdonais(a R&D designer at WotC) is the person who came up with one of the weapon implement things in the 1st place(using a net as an implement), I'd suspect that's not going to be a problem area...

Jan 15, 2010 -- 10:54AM, Ferol_debtor_of_Torm wrote:

The problem isn't that hybrids can do this. It's that hybrids can do it and non-hybrids cannot. A shaman/wizard can never use a fullblade as an implement for shaman powers. A shaman|wizard does it at level 1 with one feat.

But there is no point in arguing against hybrids being allowed into the game at this point. As MFM already stated, no amout of logic will fix this. Hybrids are coming. All I ask is that the campaign try to minimize the pain.

A Shaman|Wizard can't do it either. A Shaman can use Wizard implements for Shaman powers, but AIP doesn't give you the ability to use a heavy blade as a Wizard implement; instead, you can use it as an implement for arcane powers.