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RPGA Living Forgotten R.. Rewards cards - how to balance them for players...
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 04, 2010 - 12:28PM #71
CarlT
Date Joined: Apr 10, 2009
Posts: 2,878

Dec 22, 2009 -- 6:36AM, MatteBlack wrote:

Dec 21, 2009 -- 9:29PM, CarlT wrote:


I think that this ignores the easiest solution:

Keep stack sizes the same, but limit the actual number of cards that the player can use.


Carl




In my experience, players frequently end mods with half their cards unused. I doubt the above solution impact the issue much at all.





On the contrary - if, in your experience "players end mods with half their card unused.", that shows that in your experience the players are not using too many cards (which was part of the original complaints).  Card that are unused do not impact the game and thus you cannot say that you are suffering from having too many cards on the table.

The solution would be doing as it should:  Solving the problem for those people who think that there are too many cards being used (apparently not you) and leaving those tables which do not have this problem untouched.

If, on the other hand, you think the problem is that a few cards are overpowered (a wholly seperate issue and one that will never be solved by limiting the number of cards or most of the other ideas suggested) then the ideal solution is clear:  Those cards should be fixed in errata (or fixed by DM's fiat at the table if a home game).  Any solution that limits the number which can be used only makes those few 'broken' cards the mandatory choice, rather than being one choice among many. 

Make "Snap Out of it" cost a surge, for example.

Carl

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 04, 2010 - 1:25PM #72
Elder_basilisk
Date Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 2,524

Jan 4, 2010 -- 12:28PM, CarlT wrote:

Card that are unused do not impact the game and thus you cannot say that you are suffering from having too many cards on the table.




Cards that are unused do actually impact the game in a number of tactically significant ways.

First, they change the value of certain build options.
For example, a fighter/warlord with the fey charge feat might specifically choose the inevitable wave at-will power because it enables him to use daring exploit to re-roll his charges and thus keep using fey-charge on a miss. (Heck, I thought about inevitable wave for my inspiring warlord because it would enable her to re-roll a missed charge when she is using her vanguard weapon daily and that's about as much use as she's likely to get out of a 3rd at will). Whether the player ended the mod with three daring exploits remaining or one, it still made the power more attractive.
Likewise, snap out of it enables an invoker to avoid the negative effects of silent malediction. If he still has a snap out of it card remaining at the end of the adventure, it doesn't change the fact that the mere possibility of snap out of it makes silent malediction a more attractive choice than it would otherwise be.

Second, they change the expected result of certain tactical options. Three examples:
1. You are playing a rogue and you are next to a monster that you are pretty sure is on its last legs. You really really really want to kill it this round. Ordinarily, the obvious choice is to use a daily half-damage on a miss power like pommel smash. If you hit, you WILL kill the monster. If you miss, you may well kill the monster anyway. (Let's figure that there's a 50% chance to hit and a 50% chance that miss damage kills the monster anyway. That's a 75% chance to kill the monster). On the other hand, if you have two daring exploits, you can use an at-will attack instead. You have a 50% chance to kill the monster with no resource expenditure, a 25% chance to kill the monster with one daring exploit used, and a 12.5% chance to kill the monster after using two daring exploits. That's an 87.5% chance of killing the monster, making your at-will attack a better choice. This is true before you have spent any of the cards and will remain true whether or not you end up using them.
2. You are a ranger in a party with a bravura warlord and are about to spend an action point. You are have no special action point benefits, so ordinarily, it makes no difference wether you attack with jaws of the wolf then action point to twin strike or if you action point for jaws of the wolf then use your standard action for twin strike. If you have a daring exploit card, however, you can use that to reroll a miss if you spend the action point for twin strike, thus taking you from a 75% chance of earning that bravura presence free attack to an 87.5% chance and taking you from a 50% chance of granting combat advantage to a 25% chance. This is true before you have spent any of your cards and will remain true even if you end up hitting with both twin strike attacks and still have the card left unspent at the end of the mod.
3. You are a charisma paladin with a +0 athletics check and a that'll do card. The monster you want to attack is on the other side of a 10 foot wide and 20 foot deep pit. If you go around the pit, you will not be able to attack the monster. If you try to jump over the pit, you will be able to attack the monster this round, but you have a 45% chance of failing the athletics check, taking 2d10 damage, being unable to even mark the monster this round and probably taking 2 or three rounds to stand up, get a rope and grappling hook out of your pack and climb up the wall. Ordinarily, it is not a good idea to try to jump the pit. You risk far more than you will gain from a single attack and the bad result is almost as likely as the good result. On the other hand, you have a that'll do card, so the choice is obvious: you jump the pit. You have a 55% chance of coming out one attack ahead with no resource expenditure and a 45% chance of getting that attack at the cost of your that'll do card. That'll do still got you an extra attack even the 55% of the time that you didn't have to spend it.

The idea that unspent cards do not impact the game is simply wrong. And the more cards that you have available to you, the more likely unspent cards are to actually impact the game. (Because you can take enough of them that risk mitigation selections are less likely to conflict with the ordinary use of cards and because the ability to take multiple cards allows you to layer risk your risk mitigation--what are the odds that you will fail two fey charge attacks in the course of a module (or that you will fail, re-roll and still fail)? Pretty good really; one at-will re-roll won't transform fey charge into a genuine at-will strategy. On the other hand, the odds that you will fail four such attack rolls over the course of a module are a lot lower. If you are willing to pack four daring exploits, it really is pretty much at-will ability).

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 04, 2010 - 10:21PM #73
Alphastream1
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I agree with Mr. Basilisk. Having more options means increased flexibility to handle different situations. 2-3 Snap Out of Its for daze-heavy mods, 2 That'll Dos, the extra movement card just to break out the +2 or if it is actually needed, the blodied shift card, the Lucky Strike... it all creates options. The more options, the more power. And, it also frees you up to take more of the cards that are strong. Many PCs take a That'll Do just in case, even if they aren't skill monkeys. That's one less of whatever card they would prefer to take for combat.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 05, 2010 - 9:26AM #74
RCanine
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Aug 26, 2008
Posts: 537
As a result of this thread, I just played my first game without any cards. My excuse is that I technically haven't been playing long enough to have earned the PDF cards, and I've only earned one cardboard one: the year 2 quest card (you better believe I'll be keeping that in my stack).

The result was almost humorous. My DM's face dropped, and I got to listen to a lecture from another player on how my reasoning was ridiculous, that I'm disadvantaging the party, and that she would sell me some from her collection for $5 each (her stack was about 1-inch thing, and she had a second, similarly-sized one from Living Grayhawk).

It didn't bug me any, but if you go this route, expect some folks with little tact to let you know what they think about it.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 05, 2010 - 11:14AM #75
Joe_Shill
Date Joined: Mar 28, 2009
Posts: 273

Jan 5, 2010 -- 9:26AM, RCanine wrote:

As a result of this thread, I just played my first game without any cards. My excuse is that I technically haven't been playing long enough to have earned the PDF cards, and I've only earned one cardboard one: the year 2 quest card (you better believe I'll be keeping that in my stack).

The result was almost humorous. My DM's face dropped, and I got to listen to a lecture from another player on how my reasoning was ridiculous, that I'm disadvantaging the party, and that she would sell me some from her collection for $5 each (her stack was about 1-inch thing, and she had a second, similarly-sized one from Living Grayhawk).

It didn't bug me any, but if you go this route, expect some folks with little tact to let you know what they think about it.




I often play without any cards.  Not out of any moral issue, but because I keep printing off the PDF cards and giving them away, and I'm too lazy to remember to restock.

Some of the modules that appear to be designed to need a "Snap out of it" irritate me, but other than that, I don't think the cards are a big deal one way or another.

"At Gencon 2010, WOTC will announce a new edition of Dungeons & Dragons." - crm(1/2010)
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 05, 2010 - 12:01PM #76
tirianmal
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 1,064
We had a bit of a similar situation last night. One of the players doesn't play enough to have cards of his own and we just let him assume he could print out the PDF cards and "had" the at-will re-rolls. Technically not valid but it was a hard encounter and they really needed the help.

The flip-side was that we didn't let someone do the same for a "Furious Evocation" because it isn't in any PDF and therefore if you don't have teh actual card, you can't get teh benefit. *shrug*

People do funny things in the presence or absence of the cards, 'tis true.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 05, 2010 - 1:10PM #77
imaginaryfriend
Date Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 681
Granted the Netherlands is a pretty small sample size as LFR goes, but I haven't really seen any cards but the quest and creation cards used in a while. From what I winess most everyone is not only fine with that as the new status quo, its actually preferred by most.  

As a DM i generally just ask people if they mind doing without the silly stuff like snap out of it. 

 As for the many mentioned options...

Although it seems cool to get cards or bumps as a DM, i see a risk in creating an extra set of "gotcha" options on the NPC side. Especially DM cards could soon turn tricky since the DM knows exactly what combats are likely to be like and can choose for optimum synergy. Also the DM tends to roll a lot more dice. I don'r even want to imagine certain encounters where a DM has lucky shot... 

I think the answer is likelier to be found in limiting excess like erratas for certain cards, adventure/daily/encounter usage limits or a no duplicates rule.
To DME, or not to DME: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous powergaming, Or to take arms against a sea of Munchkins, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;No more;
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2010 - 2:44PM #78
old_dog
Date Joined: Jun 12, 2004
Posts: 314
I think I will add one thing to my suggestion to limit it to once an encounter or skill challenge.

No multiple copies of cards in a stack
2 cards at heroic (plus quest cards)
3 at paragon (plus quest cards)
4 at epic (plus quest cards)
Only one card can be used, by each player, in an encounter or skill challenge

Tried this out with my regular game group and it seems to work well.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2010 - 2:53PM #79
Mirtek
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Aug 4, 2001
Posts: 3,446

Jan 6, 2010 -- 2:44PM, old_dog wrote:

Tried this out with my regular game group and it seems to work well.


So if you can already do that and it works well for you, why try to get WotC to do anything? The people who freely want to limit themselves do that and the people who are happy with max. currently allowed level do that?

And if two opposing playstiles have to share a table (e.g. at a Con): talk to each other and live with the fact that both sides have to live with being a little bit disappointed during the next 4h (e.g. one side having their fellows using more cards than they would have liked them to use while they at the same time lament not being able to use cards as many cards as they normally would). The DM is of course als a side whose playstile has to be respected when the middle ground is determined

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2010 - 3:04PM #80
Alphastream1
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Date Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 4,619

Jan 6, 2010 -- 2:53PM, Mirtek wrote:


And if two opposing playstiles have to share a table: talk to each other and live with the fact that both sides have to live with a little disappointed during the next 4h (e.g. one side having their fellows using more cards than they would have liked them to used while they at the same still use less cards than they would have used otherwise). The DM is of course als a side whose playstile has to be respected when the middle ground is determined



Easy to say, hard to do. I think most of us have seen an ADCP1-1 table where some players really wanted to use cards and others really wanted to get a good score. I've seen some heated discussions, and this had a clear benefit to go with the "less powerful" option.

I think the CCG rules and cards need to be examined. They have a real altering effect on how players percieve the 4E rule set, yet the point of RPGA and LFR is to showcase the game... the actual game.

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