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3 years ago ::
Dec 21, 2009 - 7:20AM
#31
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2006
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Giving the DM any sort of "counters" to the cards or equivalent bonuses does run the risk raising tension between players and DMs and only add another level of decisions and complexity that would slow play down. Likewise, I'd hate to pit disagreeing players against one another by giving a player an addtional to impact the gold, xp or incoming attacks/NPC difficulty for the rest of the party.
Reducing the total size of the stacks and limiting each to one copy would likely reduce the problem quite a bit. I'd even bet that the time spent picking and playing the cards would be reduced by a minute or two which wouldn't be unwelcome. Some players might not like being limited in this way but, it would meet alot less resistance than invalidating cards people already own and may have spent time, effort and/or money acquiring.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 21, 2009 - 9:33AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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I'm not at all surprised that dazed is overused by module designers. It's not like they have much of a choice in the matter.
There are only twelve conditions that can be inflicted in the PHB. Of those twelve conditions, two have a neglegible effect almost all of the time (deafened and slowed). Five are usually irrelevant to entire groups of characters (ranged or reach characters don't overly mind being prone, immobilized or restrained, characters with area effects don't care about blinded, and anyone who isn't a striker isn't overly affected by weakened). By this I mean that the condition doesn't usually change strategy: a character would usually take the same action even if the condition wasn't there.
Yes, there are always exceptions. But usually when you're slowed or prone, there's still something within easy charge range, and most of the time when you're weakened, you would do the same thing as when you weren't weakened. In essence, you grit your character's teeth, ignore the condition, and keep playing.
The remaining five conditions seriously hamper you and that you can't ignore: dazed lets you skip most of your turn, and the four others (petrified, stunned, unconscious, and dominated) make you skip all of it. All of these except dazing are pretty rare in the heroic tier. Again with a few exceptions, e.g. a barbarian can still charge and do heavy damage when dazed.
So there is a wide gap between the seven nuisance conditions, and the five disabling conditions. Because this gap is so wide, the first disabled condition is used often, and is very noticeable when used.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 21, 2009 - 9:44AM
#33
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Forced movement is vastly underused as far as I can tell. Also, conditions don't actually need to be that common. Zones, blocking or punishing actions, teleportation, vulnerability to damage - all kinds of things that aren't damage.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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3 years ago ::
Dec 21, 2009 - 10:06AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2008
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As much as being Dazed stinks, it really isn't usually a game-breaking status. I would think that one "Snap Out of It" isn't really that over-powered. A free re-roll of an At-Will has never felt that overpowered to me, either - but I'm still in the 1-4 level range for LFR. I tend to go with those two cards, and the re-roll has been about 50% effective - the Daze card seems to go unused in nearly half my adventures, but so be it.
It seems like the next set of rules should include no more than 1 copy of any given card, and limiting the number of cards to 2/3/4 per tier.
One thought that I had was that maybe the use of a card counts as a Daily Magic Item usage? It would really force people to weigh card usage against their magic items: "Do I re-roll Enfeebling Strike, or will I need my Dwarven Armor power before the next Action Point?"
What makes me sad - no more compiled magazines: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27580349/Dungeon_and_Dragon_Magazine_PDFs&post_num=24#495423645
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3 years ago ::
Dec 21, 2009 - 10:45AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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Oh yeah, it seems that everyone uses at-will rerolls, That'll Do, and Snap, and occasionally see that crit-on-a-19 card, and that pretty much every other card might as well not exist.
Exception: there's a card that boosts movement, which is sometimes used for no reason because it gives an ally +2 bonus later on. That's... probably not what the designers intended.
Overall it is a clunky system, and it's certainly not a "reward" for anything considering everybody can just download them. They're more like "player entitlement" cards, in that some players feel entitled to having moar bonus.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 21, 2009 - 11:02AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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There's Second Chance, and folks do use cards like Elemental Fury, One-Shot One-Kill and Minion Slayer too.
But you're not wrong about those other cards being common. I just don't think it is as absolute as you make it out.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 21, 2009 - 11:17AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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There's Second Chance, and folks do use cards like Elemental Fury, One-Shot One-Kill and Minion Slayer too.
I don't even know what elemental fury does, that's how common it is here 
I've seen players take SC for a while, but it very rarely comes up and eventually they tend to realize that That'll Do is just flat-out better. OSOK and MS I've also seen players take but very rarely actually use, because their triggers are pretty rare, and never seem to come up when you actually need them.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 21, 2009 - 11:37AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2008
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[i]t's certainly not a "reward" for anything, considering everybody can just download them. They're more like "player entitlement" cards, in that some players feel entitled to having moar bonus.
I can see that point of view, but my take has always been that these are part of putting up with the rules of LFR. I had gotten the password, and so had access to the PDF without google. So when I started organizing LFR games in my area (Worcester), I would bring a set of cards printed out. It gave people a reason to sign up for the RPGA, play with the rules in place, and give them a little extra "oomph" at the table. I mistakenly told people that they could only use one copy of each card at first, and no one complained. Since then I have corrected that, but no one is doubling up on any of the cards. Everyone grabs the reroll (and I only have 2 per power source with 4 arcane players) and the rest is a toss up. Minion Slayer seems pretty popular around here.
What makes me sad - no more compiled magazines: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27580349/Dungeon_and_Dragon_Magazine_PDFs&post_num=24#495423645
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3 years ago ::
Dec 21, 2009 - 12:45PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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I don't even know what elemental fury does, that's how common it is here
I've seen players take SC for a while, but it very rarely comes up and eventually they tend to realize that That'll Do is just flat-out better. OSOK and MS I've also seen players take but very rarely actually use, because their triggers are pretty rare, and never seem to come up when you actually need them.
Since you were commenting in the general "these cards might as well not exist", I was offering commentary from a different point of view. I can't help it if your players don't use these cards. 
As for SC versus That'll Do: it depends on when and where you think you'll use it. That'll Do is great for your trained skills, when you know that if you take a 10, you'll probably succeed. But re-rolling is a better choice if you know you can't succeed on a 10 (usually if you're untrained) and really want to deal with the possibility of having a failure in a Skill Challenge. I'd go with SC for those times when we had a relatively unbalanced party and skill coverage was likely to suck. In that case, someone is going to be rolling untrained skills and SC is better in that case (IMO).
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3 years ago ::
Dec 21, 2009 - 12:58PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2007
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To summarize the thread to this point:
• Issue: Player rewards cards give enough of an extra "bump" as to unbalance the game, sometimes to the point of it being less fun. (A bad thing.)
Proposed solutions so far:
• Reduce the number of cards in the stack (5 at early paragon seems very high for most players)
• "Type" the cards, and limit the number of each "type"
• Disallow using dupliates. (In other threads, the feeling is that this rule should be restricted for magic items as well.)
• Give the DM a minimal "balancing" effect each time a card is used. (Perhaps +1 bumps that can be used before a die roll, bonus to saves, etc.)
• Give the DM a power/effect that can be used only against the player who "triggered" the card. (i.e. You use a card, I get a reroll/bonus vs. an attack vs. you.)
• Penalize players with GP/XP for using cards. (I am personally not a fan of this solution, but include it for completeness. Why should someone be punished for using "earned rewards.")
• Issue erratta for "overpowered" cards.
Most popular ideas:
(1) Reduce the number of cards, and do not allow duplicates.
(2) Have a minimal consequence for using cards, such as was done in ADCP1-1. (Note: Personally, I do not agree with the idea of removing XP/GP when a player "activates a reward. A pile of +2 counters that the DM may spend before a die roll though . . . .)
Dan Anderson
@EpicUthrac
Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Meet me at TotalConfusion:
http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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