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3 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2010 - 7:48AM
#241
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Sadly, the control creatures only encourage more damage output and nova-ing. Other than an orbizard permastunning a Bone Naga out of range, the only real solution is to kill it. An elite (yay hp and defenses) that dazes everything automatically. And not even in a way you can really hand out saves.
A creature like a Nephigor, dazing it is a huge help, but other than that you want to focus fire it down as fast as possible so it stops restraining and OAing. Sacrificing damage to give other people saves can help you slightly, when that's convenient, but if you do too much of that you actually hurt your ability by taking long enough that it recharges an attack and restrains everyone again.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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3 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2010 - 8:43AM
#242
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Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2009
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For my part, I'd like to see some actual easy paragon mods before we decide that all paragon mods are cakewalks
EB: We're about to start Paragon play in my weekly group, so I'm wondering which adventures you've played (so I can put them on the "er, wait on that" list).
Core 1-11, Core 1-14, Wat 1-6, Spec 1-3.
I would advise skipping Spec 1-3 and Core 1-11 entirely. In general, you'd have more fun getting a root canal.
I'd ask "why the hate," but given some of your earlier posts, I'm not sure I want to know.
Thank god they're not letting me write any more adventures. Oh wait...
I agree with EB. I have played Spec1-3 P1 and I have had a root canal. I'd rather have the root canal.
Melee characters are at a constant disadvantage. Even for ranged characters, the mod is not challenging, merely a grind and abusive.
I plan to avoid modules you write in the future, based on my experience with your work in Spec1-3 P1 and the TPK setup you designed for the last encounter of Arts. I don't think they are fun.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2010 - 11:10AM
#243
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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Sadly, the control creatures only encourage more damage output and nova-ing. Other than an orbizard permastunning a Bone Naga out of range, the only real solution is to kill it. An elite (yay hp and defenses) that dazes everything automatically. And not even in a way you can really hand out saves.
Interestingly, I created an encounter for P2 with a Bone Naga. I had to take it out because it was not strong enough. Sure, aura that dazes and it could do lots of damage with a burst within the aura, but the PCs had no problem obliterating it and stopping it in various ways. I ended up changing the encounter.
Now, I can envision ways to make a Bone Naga difficult, but in the situation I was working with, it was weak.
It was rather funny in the playtest seeing the dazed rogue move all over the map and take some four attacks... all while dazed. Impressive, most impressive. It did live for two rounds, thanks to the HPs, but it took all of one action... (And it was sad, as since I saw the monster I have loved the Bone Naga)
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3 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2010 - 11:16AM
#244
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Date Joined:
Nov 10, 2003
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For my part, I'd like to see some actual easy paragon mods before we decide that all paragon mods are cakewalks
EB: We're about to start Paragon play in my weekly group, so I'm wondering which adventures you've played (so I can put them on the "er, wait on that" list).
Core 1-11, Core 1-14, Wat 1-6, Spec 1-3.
I would advise skipping Spec 1-3 and Core 1-11 entirely. In general, you'd have more fun getting a root canal.
EB, I think you've played only the hardest paragon mods. The cores have more XP than standard, and the Spec is, well, a Spec (nice to see that all our complaints about Spec1-2 fell on deaf ears. I haven't played Spec1-3 P1, but I wasn't keen on the lower tier versions I played).
Core 1-11 wasn't that bad...
'minor spoiler'
Show
as long as you take 5 snap-out-of-its in your stack.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2010 - 11:27AM
#245
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Sadly, the control creatures only encourage more damage output and nova-ing. Other than an orbizard permastunning a Bone Naga out of range, the only real solution is to kill it. An elite (yay hp and defenses) that dazes everything automatically. And not even in a way you can really hand out saves.
Interestingly, I created an encounter for P2 with a Bone Naga. I had to take it out because it was not strong enough. Sure, aura that dazes and it could do lots of damage with a burst within the aura, but the PCs had no problem obliterating it and stopping it in various ways. I ended up changing the encounter.
Now, I can envision ways to make a Bone Naga difficult, but in the situation I was working with, it was weak.
It was rather funny in the playtest seeing the dazed rogue move all over the map and take some four attacks... all while dazed. Impressive, most impressive. It did live for two rounds, thanks to the HPs, but it took all of one action... (And it was sad, as since I saw the monster I have loved the Bone Naga)
The bone naga is a good example not of a creature that is too powerful, but one that is horrible. It autodazes all around it, it's annoying, its damage output is negligible, and it just promotes grind.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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3 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2010 - 11:41AM
#246
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I plan to avoid modules you write in the future, based on my experience with your work in Spec1-3 P1 and the TPK setup you designed for the last encounter of Arts. I don't think they are fun.
DALE1-7 is discussed here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
From what I can see the majority on these boards loved the challenge, or the fact that as a DM they prefer to downgrade as opposed to upgrade. He also notes that on hindsight it might have been a little bit too difficult, appologizing and reminding DMs that they can downgrade things. It seems to be inherent to adventures in which an author tries to do new things: some people will really hate it.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2010 - 11:43AM
#247
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2009
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I plan to avoid modules you write in the future, based on my experience with your work in Spec1-3 P1 and the TPK setup you designed for the last encounter of Arts. I don't think they are fun.
Just to be less of a hater (and admittedly I don't have much to weigh it against) myself and a bunch of my buddies got together and did RPGA/LFG play for the first time a week or so ago. We ran the Arts and Crafts set of adventures, and didn't run into a TPK situation.
Different play styles maybe? But I thought that those particular adventures were fun, and the combats were involved and entertaining. The group had a good deal of fun both handling the skill challenges, and RP, as well as the battles.
Anyway, just tossing a name in the hat of 'less than hate' and it was a pretty fun little adventure. I'll play the other things you've written up as our characters get to those levels.
EDIT: OH! And we ran it on hard. With 6 strikers. 3 level 1, 2 level 2, and a level 3. Kapow!
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3 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2010 - 12:47PM
#248
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
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I plan to avoid modules you write in the future, based on my experience with your work in Spec1-3 P1 and the TPK setup you designed for the last encounter of Arts. I don't think they are fun.
DALE1-7 is discussed here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
From what I can see the majority on these boards loved the challenge, or the fact that as a DM they prefer to downgrade as opposed to upgrade. He also notes that on hindsight it might have been a little bit too difficult, appologizing and reminding DMs that they can downgrade things. It seems to be inherent to adventures in which an author tries to do new things: some people will really hate it.
I think this probably goes to a DMing style thing. In that thread, one apparent author seems to think that anything the rules guidelines allow him to do is fair game. (I wonder if that would have extended to half-fiend phasms advanced by HD using blasphemy in 3.5?) Many others DMs and another apparent author seemed not to have not considered that the main bad guy might drop both area attacks on the PCs with an action point in round 1 and that the bugbears humans might follow up and close burst the PCs more times, creating multiple opportunities to drop the party before they get to act. Later in the thread, a lot of people seem to post to the effect, "well, yeah, it would be way too hard if we did that, but we won't because it's not fun." On the other hand, there are quite a few DMs who figure that the writer wouldn't or shouldn't use the monster if he doesn't want the monster to be played intelligently--which is to say, played to win.
And I think that Dale 1-7 demonstrates quite well that if some writers working on a mod use the "DMs will nerf it if it seems likely to TPK the whole party before they act" assuption but the mod is run by DMs using the "if the writer didn't want a TPK, he wouldn't have written "uses area bursts as often as possible" in the tactics" you are going to end up with a lot of situations where the module does not perform as intended.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2010 - 1:29PM
#249
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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DALE1-7 is not so bad at low tier. It's if you're low level playing high tier that it smacks you down hard.
High tier folks playing high tier can start off a combat and take the 25 damage at start. I mean, they won't be happy. Oh no. But, it won't immediately end their day. It does scale slightly painfully for six, too, since that might mean up to five attacks on most of a group before they get to a respond, with bad luck. Yeah, that could be a problem.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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3 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2010 - 1:31PM
#250
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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I think this probably goes to a DMing style thing.
EB, how many times have you had an LFR character die? How many times have you been part of a TPK? I'm trying to get a better feel for the scope of this problem.
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