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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 11:36AM
#1
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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This is a continuation of this thread's delve into the challenge level in paragon mods. So far, discussion has included the topic of striker damage, especially in early rounds, the topic of monster damage expressions, and the things authors can do (terrain, delaying monsters, many lower level, minions) to compensate.
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips! Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 11:40AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2009
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Terrain, terrain, terrain. This is the easiest way to challenge the PCs, especially in paragon. Cause them to think smarter with how they implement their plan of attack instead of a barren room with monsters in it.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 11:49AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2007
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Some ideas:
(1) Add the following power to the elite monster:
Each time it is hit with an attack, the attacker takes 5 fire damage and gains vulnerable 10 fire (save ends). Aftereffect: Vulnernable 5 fire (save ends). [Or insert other energy type that synergizes well with the rest of the monsters in the encounter.]
* Multiple attacks - or even one while the "minions" are still in the fight - comes with a cost.
(2) Add the following skill challenge:
The BBEG begins the encounter with Resist 20 all. Each time a PC earns a success towards the skill challenge, lower the resistance by 5. (Weaken the magic field, etc.)
* The nova striker may still be able to do decent damage, but controlling effects become more useful. Needing to do something other than "kill them as fast as possible" always results in more interesting combats.
(3) Similiar to #2:
The four chanting invokers are creating a protective shield around their leader. Each has an Aura 10: One target gains resist all 5. (Or, one creature gains a +4 to all defenses?) This aura can stack with others of the same type.
* Again, encourages targeting the secondary monsters, rather than attempting a 1-turn nova on the BBEG, keeps him in the fight longer.
NOTE: In all of these cases, clear directions need to be provided for the PCs as to what the effects are. These are not meant as "gotcha" (i.e. unfun) effects to throw at PCs, but added mechanics that keep the interesting Big Bad Evil Guy threat going past a potential 1st-round damage nova.
Dan Anderson
@EpicUthrac
Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Meet me at TotalConfusion:
http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 11:57AM
#4
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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At some point the damage output between PCs and monsters is just too different.
Well, yes and no. As we're seeing, optimised paragon strikers can output obscene damage (kudos on that damage output out of a warlock btw, although I assume that 83 per round was a result of cursegrind/cursebite on everything in the room, rather than single target), but what happens when you sit down at a table with a Warden, a Valor Bard, a Feylock and a Guardian Druid? Ostensibly a balanced party with excellent control, but their damage output is likely to be horrible. If you build monsters to nerf optimised strikers, then a party like this has no chance of a non-grindy fight, even if they are all well built characters in a balanced party.
Darklock tactics
Show
Uthrac has a good handle on some of the options. Cursegrind is certainly a big power to use as a Darklock. And Hexblast is used, though it isn't critical. Two Quickcurse rods and Battle harness and the twin curse feat means 4 things cursed, often plenty. You can then use some other power that has higher damage instead of Cursegrind. It has been a pretty big challenge for me to reach decent damage with my warlock. My Cursegrind at 14th level is 2d10+21 to all cursed critters in a burst 20. The 83 dmg per round was as follows: My party had already taken out two of the combatants, leaving only two combatants... (I rolled unusually low on init). Round 1, Hexblast on 2 targets for 22 each, curse on 1 for 13, 4 points from Rod of Reaving. AP, Cursegrind, missed one of them, 38 damage. Minor to use Rod of Silver Rain, 10 ongoing on both targets (resulted in 20 dmg). Round 2, Influence of Akamar for 37 plus 11 curse on the remaining foe. Darkfire on him, which caused the ranger to hit for about 85 dmg (not included in calculation).
In CORM1-6, I wrote down that I had Round 1 Hexblast for 72 including one crit, 8 reaving, 16 curse. AP for Cursegrind for 64. Round 2 was Cursebite for 57 and 4 curse and 11 aura. neither of these include Gloves of Eldritch Admixture, which I often use. And these examples apart, I don't use Hexblast that often. In terms of what happens when you have a party without a striker, it isn't really a problem unless you choose foes with huge HPs. The only issue then is time - you get a grind. Without a striker the monsters stay up longer but still lack the damage to really threaten and now you probably have more control/healing/defense with which to withstand their attacks. Just to be clear, I'm not advocating building encounters to nerf strikers at all. In an ideal world I would want the basic damage of all monsters to rise. Apart from that I'm asking for more XP for authors, which is a simpler fix.
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips! Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 11:58AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
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I will just say this. Please, please, please do not ruin combats by adding execrable skill challenges into them. It's just an irredemably bad and inexcusable mechanic. I can ordinarily ignore them and at least enjoy the combat and non-skill challenge story elements of the module. But if you put a "can't kill this monster until you beat the skill challenge" element into a mod, that's pretty much making it a "don't play" for me. (And before you say, "give them a chance", it's been two years and they haven't gotten any better. I think the authors and designers have had plenty of chances to make them work--it just hasn't happened).
Skill checks are fine as long as they make sense and have sensible DCs. But, please, no skill challenges.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 12:03PM
#6
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I will just say this. Please, please, please do not ruin combats by adding execrable skill challenges into them. It's just an irredemably bad and inexcusable mechanic. I can ordinarily ignore them and at least enjoy the combat and non-skill challenge story elements of the module. But if you put a "can't kill this monster until you beat the skill challenge" element into a mod, that's pretty much making it a "don't play" for me. (And before you say, "give them a chance", it's been two years and they haven't gotten any better. I think the authors and designers have had plenty of chances to make them work--it just hasn't happened).
Skill checks are fine as long as they make sense and have sensible DCs. But, please, no skill challenges.
Fortunately, you're not the only person playing LFR adventures. Many people enjoy skill challenges during combat - they make things more dynamic. If you want to keep playing mods with boring, static combats where you can freely beat the crap out of the bad guys without breaking a sweat, there are plenty of those out right now for you to choose from.
Dave Kay
LFR Writing Director Retiree
dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 12:08PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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Give controller monsters powers like:
Immediate Interrupt, Encounter: Resist all/10 until the end of it's next turn.
Instead of making the BBEG a solo, make him an elite, and add 2 standard cultists performing a ritual to give him Resist all/10. Or those two magic pillars give him Resist all/10 or ...
(Note: As in the other thread, I'm promoting resistance as a defense, because it affects multi-attackers more than big-W attackers, and I view multiattacking as a more-powerful-than-intended approach. A 9[W] daily does about the same damage as a 3 attack 1[W] encounter power). One would naively expect a 29th level pure damage daily power to do more damage than a 17th level encounter power, but it doesn't.)
Cold Resistance, but that's unfairly targeting a specific bit of cheese that can easily be replaced by different build elements.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 12:13PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2004
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Terrain, terrain, terrain. This is the easiest way to challenge the PCs, especially in paragon. Cause them to think smarter with how they implement their plan of attack instead of a barren room with monsters in it.
I totally agree that creative and tactical terrain can make a fight much more interesting. But in a couple of the paragons (WATE 1-6 and the first CORE that came out), the final battles seemed like they were set up to frustrate melee characters. Ranged characters in those situations can just sit back and shoot wihtout a care in the world, while the melee characters have to slog through difficult terrain across a large distance, leaping over pits and climbing up walls or difficult staircases. Of course that's a fundamental difference between melee and ranged characters, but does exacerbating it that much make the game more fun?
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 12:14PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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I will just say this. Please, please, please do not ruin combats by adding execrable skill challenges into them
Fortunately, you're not the only person playing LFR adventures. Many people enjoy skill challenges during combat - they make things more dynamic.
I'm with EB here... the best skill challenges I've seen in modules are the ones that are the least structured. "Bob's trying to do X, and Phil's trying to do Y, and the adventurers probably want to do Z. Generally use the middle DCs, and try and time it so things work out after 6 successes"
In combat, I'm very willing to discover that I really ought to be applying my dwarven lockpicks (big hammer) here vs. there (hitting the magic pillar vs. hitting the monster. Or some other similar puzzle element), but as a player and a DM, trying to run diplomacy checks in the middle of combat is distracting, hard, annoying, and not fun. And thievery checks that are strictly inferior to just beating on things? Pet Peeve of mine.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 12:26PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2004
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Skill challenges in fights are tricky because the skill challenge has to be more threatening/pressing than the fight so that people will actually forgo attacking to try skill checks, and the actual combat needs to be easier because there are going to be 6 or 8 or whatever character rounds when characters aren't participating because they're making skill checks. So those things need to be balanced out.
The only time I remember liking this in a mod is CORE 1-2. I won't cite details even though most people have probably played it by now. It had an life or death emergency that had to be dealt with immediately, it was heroic, it was directly linked to the plot of the adventure, and fight seemed to be a good challenge level.
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