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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 10:45AM
#81
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2009
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so that it cannot be abused to gain benefits from use outside the adventuring day.
I admit that I didn't even think about pretending that your character has rerolled the dice every day during the last 3 month that went by ingame since your last mod so that you could show up with three pre-rolled 20s. Yeah it's good that they at least fixed that.
Yet this fix still doesn't do anything about epic characters buying three sets with the spare cash the found in their couch to start each day with 9 pre-rolls, which is the abuse I was actually thinking about
OK, I can see that. Especially in an epic build that does stupidly egregious stuff if it can guarantee a 'starter hit'. Oh wait, isn't that most of charop?
I don't think I care - it seems like a terribly dull way to use your 3 dailies before doing anything interesting with your adventuring day.
This is a good point about the dice. At whatever level of abuse that might occur, they still use up item daily powers.
I'm trying to pull from the top of my head (and failing) any other item daily powers that the player would really miss out on by spending them on the dice.
Is it the case that the dice are just _so_ durn good that they are worth giving up every other daily power, or is it a case that in reality players might use one set of dice, but will save their additional daily powers for other items? If that is so, then by definition they would be good, but not tremendously overpowered.
Now, if you feel (and I'm not arguing either way on this one) that the dice are so good that if you had 3 sets, they would be the only item daily you would ever want to use, then by that same definition, they are overpowered.
"At Gencon 2010, WOTC will announce a new edition of Dungeons & Dragons." - crm(1/2010)
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 11:02AM
#82
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
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so that it cannot be abused to gain benefits from use outside the adventuring day.
I admit that I didn't even think about pretending that your character has rerolled the dice every day during the last 3 month that went by ingame since your last mod so that you could show up with three pre-rolled 20s. Yeah it's good that they at least fixed that.
Yet this fix still doesn't do anything about epic characters buying three sets with the spare cash the found in their couch to start each day with 9 pre-rolls, which is the abuse I was actually thinking about
OK, I can see that. Especially in an epic build that does stupidly egregious stuff if it can guarantee a 'starter hit'. Oh wait, isn't that most of charop?
I don't think I care - it seems like a terribly dull way to use your 3 dailies before doing anything interesting with your adventuring day.
This is a good point about the dice. At whatever level of abuse that might occur, they still use up item daily powers.
I'm trying to pull from the top of my head (and failing) any other item daily powers that the player would really miss out on by spending them on the dice.
Is it the case that the dice are just _so_ durn good that they are worth giving up every other daily power, or is it a case that in reality players might use one set of dice, but will save their additional daily powers for other items? If that is so, then by definition they would be good, but not tremendously overpowered.
Now, if you feel (and I'm not arguing either way on this one) that the dice are so good that if you had 3 sets, they would be the only item daily you would ever want to use, then by that same definition, they are overpowered.
Maybe and maybe not. There is also a distinct possibility that the other item dailies you are considering are underpowered. (IMO, somewhere between 70 and 90% of available item dailies are pretty much worthless (for instance the sacrificial weapon: lose a healing surge to weaken a monster for one round as a daily power--are you kidding me? That's so low percentage that there's no discernable difference between having it and not having it)).
That said, I at least could see using keoghtom's ointment, the dwarven armor daily, whiteflame armor daily, ring of the dragonborn emperor daily, or the vanguard weapon daily (on a character with good charisma) over a second or third set of dice of auspicious fortune. It still doesn't mean they're not overpowered though.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 11:08AM
#83
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2009
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so that it cannot be abused to gain benefits from use outside the adventuring day.
I admit that I didn't even think about pretending that your character has rerolled the dice every day during the last 3 month that went by ingame since your last mod so that you could show up with three pre-rolled 20s. Yeah it's good that they at least fixed that.
Yet this fix still doesn't do anything about epic characters buying three sets with the spare cash the found in their couch to start each day with 9 pre-rolls, which is the abuse I was actually thinking about
OK, I can see that. Especially in an epic build that does stupidly egregious stuff if it can guarantee a 'starter hit'. Oh wait, isn't that most of charop?
I don't think I care - it seems like a terribly dull way to use your 3 dailies before doing anything interesting with your adventuring day.
This is a good point about the dice. At whatever level of abuse that might occur, they still use up item daily powers.
I'm trying to pull from the top of my head (and failing) any other item daily powers that the player would really miss out on by spending them on the dice.
Is it the case that the dice are just _so_ durn good that they are worth giving up every other daily power, or is it a case that in reality players might use one set of dice, but will save their additional daily powers for other items? If that is so, then by definition they would be good, but not tremendously overpowered.
Now, if you feel (and I'm not arguing either way on this one) that the dice are so good that if you had 3 sets, they would be the only item daily you would ever want to use, then by that same definition, they are overpowered.
Maybe and maybe not. There is also a distinct possibility that the other item dailies you are considering are underpowered. (IMO, somewhere between 70 and 90% of available item dailies are pretty much worthless (for instance the sacrificial weapon: lose a healing surge to weaken a monster for one round as a daily power--are you kidding me? That's so low percentage that there's no discernable difference between having it and not having it)).
That said, I at least could see using keoghtom's ointment, the dwarven armor daily, whiteflame armor daily, ring of the dragonborn emperor daily, or the vanguard weapon daily (on a character with good charisma) over a second or third set of dice of auspicious fortune. It still doesn't mean they're not overpowered though.
Does there exist anywhere a set of writer's guidlines that specify what the expected power level is for a daily power, and encounter power and an at-will power? It would seem that this would be a vital document to have, given the multiple writers that have created items over the last 2 years.
"At Gencon 2010, WOTC will announce a new edition of Dungeons & Dragons." - crm(1/2010)
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 11:28AM
#84
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
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Does there exist anywhere a set of writer's guidlines that specify what the expected power level is for a daily power, and encounter power and an at-will power? It would seem that this would be a vital document to have, given the multiple writers that have created items over the last 2 years.
I suspect that there is since I have an aquaintance who was listed as an initial 4e playtester and may still playtest some new material who has mentioned a similar document for at-will class powers. Of course, the designers do not always follow the document and dragon authors may not have access to it at all.
Also, I don't have any faith that the document would be correct, even if it did exist and were available to Dragon authors. Most of the magic item daily powers that have been printed seem to follow this formula: "in a situation that won't come up, you can get a boring bonus or inflict a boring penalty that won't matter, and which may carry a cost that is too high." Really, it's only the items that are called out as unusually good that seem even close to interesting, worthwhile, or useful. (And a lot of them are broken). So, if there is such a document and most of the items written have been following it, it should be titled: "A Surefire Way to Create Crappy and Useless Magic Items." And if most items haven't been following it, it might as well not exist.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 11:38AM
#85
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2009
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There is a document for powers that serve as a guideline for creation. Ultimately the developers overlook things. Surprisingly, 4e is MUCH more streamlined with its calculations and algorithms; something that never existed in previous editions and what caused the lop-sided druids, clerics, and wizards (especially as levels were gained).
4e is great for overall balance, especially as the game scales in level. Perfect? No way. But, I have been very pleased thus far with the limit of power-creep and unbalancing issues.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 11:43AM
#86
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- RPGA Senior GM
- The Baldman
Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2003
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The implication of cheating and bad sportsmanship was made.
Neither are true, and the assertion was repugnant.
Because it is cheating (call me repugnant or whatever - I'll get over it). We can argue all day about intent, silence, ask forgiveness instead of permission, and whatever other verbal wordplay for the day we want to use but it does not change the fact that nothing in the rules allows you to make the changes you or some others here have suggested. No matter the system or rules for the campaign I've seen the same arguement recycled again and again for a decade now and really I don't expect it to go away or ever change. Some champion the rules as written, some do as they please and flaunt that when possible, and the vast majority sit in the middle and go 'Eh . .it's a game' and go on with having fun.
From my seat in the Senior GM chair the rules do not allow wholesale (or even minor) changes based on the feeling of being 'wronged' or 'cheated' regardless of labels of cheese or just good character creation. The rules are what they are and we can lobby for changes but ignoring them because of whatever you might feel or think the 'majority thinks' does not make doing so not cheating. If I was called on to make an official call at a show that's how I would come down. I don't always think my answer is the best answer possible (and many times I do lobby for changes after the fact) but it doesn't change what the answer has to be.
Now having said that I personally hope the next CCG update does address the errata changes in a fair and balanced fashion for all those affected. Some times major changes are made that do effect how a character works and takes that character out of the 'vision' the player has and by all means the goal is to let people create characters with stories that hey find fun and interesting.
People need to calm down and stop acting like somebody came into their house and turned their PS3 into an Atari or their 55 inch widescreen into an old wooden box tv with no remote. It's a game.
People also need to realize that when you play in a campaign with tens of thousands of players on a global scale that you are not going to get the instant gratification you get with a home game. There are trade-offs for the benefits gained (and well worth them imo).
Dave C
Official Somebody Nobody
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 11:51AM
#87
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Date Joined:
Jul 17, 2003
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We are working on a way to address updates with an overarching policy for LFR. When the next iteration of the Character Creation Guide comes out (look for a name change there), we'll have it addressed. Until then, play with the updated material. Your character won't stop functioning just because of a rules update.
I'm meeting with the update team later today on this as well. We may even call out the policy in the update documents in the future.
Chris Tulach
D&D Program Manager
Wizards of the Coast
http://community.wizards.com/wotc_tulach
http://twitter.com/christulach
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 11:53AM
#88
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2009
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We are working on a way to address updates with an overarching policy for LFR. When the next iteration of the Character Creation Guide comes out (look for a name change there), we'll have it addressed. Until then, play with the updated material. Your character won't stop functioning just because of a rules update.
I'm meeting with the update team later today on this as well. We may even call out the policy in the update documents in the future.
What is the expected ETA of a policy? The CCG is due out this month, will it be in it then?
Given that it has taken over a month to get this 6 sentence response, when can we actually expect an answer?
Does "Until then, play with the updated material" apply to players with characters who now are non-proficient with their weapons, or avengers wearing illegal armor?
"At Gencon 2010, WOTC will announce a new edition of Dungeons & Dragons." - crm(1/2010)
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 11:57AM
#89
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2004
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We are working on a way to address updates with an overarching policy for LFR. When the next iteration of the Character Creation Guide comes out (look for a name change there), we'll have it addressed. Until then, play with the updated material. Your character won't stop functioning just because of a rules update.
I'm meeting with the update team later today on this as well. We may even call out the policy in the update documents in the future.
Thanks for letting us know what's going on. 
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3 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2009 - 12:01PM
#90
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Does "Until then, play with the updated material" apply to players with characters who now are non-proficient with their weapons, or avengers wearing illegal armor?
Last I knew, there were core rules covering these situations involving:
- Penalties for wearing armor in which you are not proficient
- Lack of a bonus to hit with weapons with which you are not proficient
There also exists the Transfer Enchantment ritual. Some combination thereof may keep you alive and breathing until the new CCG comes out. Your character, maybe not so much  -Rozman
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