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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 9:58PM
#131
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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Just because [a] level 4 with 3 feats was able to fix this problem with one retrain doesn't mean that a level 15 with 9 feats 5 of them dedicated to using the urgosh in fun and useful ways is going to be able to, at least not in one level, it may take them 3-4 levels to get all the retrains out of the way, and fixing your character from eratta is not what the retrains were made for.
This is the crux of the issue right here. There are some changes that drastically change the way a character plays, and dramatically reduce the fun of playing with that character. Bloodclaw is not in this category. This is not just non-retrainable character choices, it's a little more insidious than that.
My example is my dwarf ranger. I took an magic Urgrosh at the end of WEEK1-3 (my first LFR games ever) first level because I thought it was cool. When Martial Power came out, I realized that my two-weapon ranger build wasn't giving me anything, and figured I'd retrain to beastmaster.
With the urgrosh changes, I'm in a pickle. The primary conceit for my character no longer holds up. I can't retrain back to TWF and probably wouldn't anyway—I've grown too attached to Tiny. What bums me out more than losing cash and damage (and don't doubt it—I'm losing a lot), is that I'm losing retraining slots. I *must* spend a few levels retraining powers I never would have taken, which means I can't test drive powers. Every choice I make I'm stuck with. As a relatively new player, I still don't see bad power choices until I get a chance to play with them at the table, now I risk being stuck with them for several levels.
I guess that was a long way of saying that, at the least, the RPGA should just increase the amount of retraining characters can do. Allow retrains between adventures or two per level. Doing so increases the fun of the game because it lets you experiment, and learn by failure instead of forcing players down a path they're unhappy with.
And you know what? Im fine with LFR giving EVERYONE more retrains per level. In fact, that sounds like a great idea. It gives new people more leeway when it comes taking feats/powers and it will help with the errata. I just want it to be fair for everyone or unfair for everyone which itself is fair.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 10:09PM
#132
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
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And you know what? Im fine with LFR giving EVERYONE more retrains per level. In fact, that sounds like a great idea. It gives new people more leeway when it comes taking feats/powers and it will help with the errata. I just want it to be fair for everyone or unfair for everyone which itself is fair.
Honestly these discussions are beyond silly at this point, I've seen a total of 1 person come to understand the issue and change sides so far and that was Joe shill, it seems like people just have their side and will thump their chest endlessly until something actually happens, why bother even discussing it anymore, all the good points have been made by both sides, no one is being swayed.. Let the staff decide what they will do and hopefully let us know some time soon, even if it's just nothing at all... make the statement that there is no recourse other than the already available methods and move on, or let us know how to do it within reason and within the rules we are given.
Blah blah blah
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 10:22PM
#133
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2008
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And you know what? Im fine with LFR giving EVERYONE more retrains per level. In fact, that sounds like a great idea. It gives new people more leeway when it comes taking feats/powers and it will help with the errata. I just want it to be fair for everyone or unfair for everyone which itself is fair.
Honestly these discussions are beyond silly at this point, I've seen a total of 1 person come to understand the issue and change sides so far and that was Joe shill
I've changed my opinion too. Re-read my posts. The issue with this errata and the RPGA rules seems simple at its face but has a lot of nuance to it, and the long discussion helped me see that.
it seems like people just have their side and will thump their chest endlessly until something actually happens, why bother even discussing it anymore, all the good points have been made by both sides, no one is being swayed.
Welcome to the Internet. I see you're new here. 
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 10:25PM
#134
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
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And you know what? Im fine with LFR giving EVERYONE more retrains per level. In fact, that sounds like a great idea. It gives new people more leeway when it comes taking feats/powers and it will help with the errata. I just want it to be fair for everyone or unfair for everyone which itself is fair.
Honestly these discussions are beyond silly at this point, I've seen a total of 1 person come to understand the issue and change sides so far and that was Joe shill
I've changed my opinion too. Re-read my posts. The issue with this errata and the RPGA rules seems simple at its face but has a lot of nuance to it, and the long discussion helped me see that.
it seems like people just have their side and will thump their chest endlessly until something actually happens, why bother even discussing it anymore, all the good points have been made by both sides, no one is being swayed.
Welcome to the Internet. I see you're new here.
well you make 2 then =) good to know sometimes people can change, but I've been here too long (the inernet lol, not new, just maybe hopefully optimistic today) to think any of the effort on either side has been worth it, rather discuss other things and move on =P
Blah blah blah
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3 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2009 - 1:10AM
#135
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2005
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Just because your level 4 with 3 feats was able to fix this problem with one retrain doesn't mean that a level 15 with 9 feats 5 of them dedicated to using the urgosh in fun and useful ways is going to be able to, at least not in one level
What you can do at level 16 is switch your dwarven weapon proficiency to weapon proficiency: Urgosh (or take that as an extra feat), and you are done. So still not too bad.
Gomez
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3 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2009 - 1:11AM
#136
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Date Joined:
Nov 10, 2003
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I think the precedent was set with Guileful Switch and Rain of Blows errata. I actually invested in 13 int for all my characters to be able to get guileful switch/grasp of the grave through power swaps. So now I have a bunch of characters with a useless 13 int. I would love to be able to rebuild and put my int where it rightly belongs at 8.
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Seriously? Every single character you invested a 13 int to get grasp of the grave? Didn't that key you in that it might be just a bit overpowered?
Anyway, it's still a decent power. Party-friendly auto-damage is nothing to sneeze at.
And Joe, as has been pointed out, targeted assault had two different rules texts in the book, and it was clarified on the forums which was the correct one. That's one change I think we should have seen coming.
I'm coming more and more into the camp of free retrains for everything affected, to be honest. I don't get the schadenfraude approach (apart from my comment about grasp above, sorry - that's mostly to do with just how much I hate that power and the abuse that's been going on with it round my neck of the woods). Everyone will have a lot more fun, and that's what it's supposed to be all about, right?
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3 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2009 - 1:24AM
#137
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2005
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This is a game, it should not be painful for 4-5 levels just to adjust to eratta, that is punishment.
This I agree with. However, I do not think we benefit form a free retrain rule whenever errata hit (or even a generic one).
I am more in favor of a few specific allowed changes to fix character builds that do not work any more or have invested a lot on the option (i.e. not bloodclaw, but urgosh or Avenger AC).
Gomez
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3 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2009 - 2:11AM
#138
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Date Joined:
Jan 26, 2005
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This is a game, it should not be painful for 4-5 levels just to adjust to eratta, that is punishment.
This I agree with. However, I do not think we benefit form a free retrain rule whenever errata hit (or even a generic one).
I am more in favor of a few specific allowed changes to fix character builds that do not work any more or have invested a lot on the option (i.e. not bloodclaw, but urgosh or Avenger AC).
Gomez
The problem with that is that then each errata must come with a list of options that have been changed enough, and that's much more work for the people who seem to have so much that they haven't responded to this issue yet.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2009 - 2:45AM
#139
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2005
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Possibly, but you will need only the occasional rule.
A generic 'free exchange when errata hits' is not a good solution either.
I can see a place for an earlier proposal where you can exchange an item for a vannilla +X item of the same plus (i.e. exhange a +3 leather of oomph for a generic +3 cloth, or a +3 bloodclaw urgosh for a generic +3 double axe), or alternately,a rule that allows you to exchange an item for an item of the lower of the original item's level or your character's level. (i.e. at level 3, you can exchnage an level 5 item for any level 3 item, or a level 2 item for any level 2 item) .
But in that case I would not limit it to erratas - that only makes it confusing and potentially unfair.
Gomez
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3 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2009 - 6:04AM
#140
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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For me, as a DM in a home game, if a something is changed and the player says "Hey it doesn't fit my character anymore" I let them change it - no waiting around.
I'm interested in the players at my games having fun doing what they want with their characters, when I'm DMing I keep in mind that the rules are just guidelines. (When I'm not in a game I want to nail them down as tight as I can to make sure I have good guidelines when I'm in a game.)
Now clearly LFR needs more guidelines than my home game, but the underlying idea of "the players having fun" still holds.
These are the 2 questions that need to be answered when looking at what to do with the updates:
What is important to you when you are at the table?
Does it really matter to you if the other people at the table got to change the parts of their character because an update changed those parts of their character, as long as their character is still legal, and you had equal opportunity to do so?
Hopefully the first question has "fun" as one of the top 2 answers, and the second question has "no" as it's answer.
I have a character that only recently dumped her Veteran's Armor; I could have changed it, but there really wasn't anything else I wanted to have in that slot for the level. I think I even remembered the pip it gave a couple of times before it got replaced. I never once cared that no one else in the local play group, that I'm aware of, kept the item, what I cared about was that everyone at the table was having fun when we were playing the game.
If the updates are changing people's characters in such a way that their fun is being compromised (and it is their fun not mine or anyone elses remember) then I think they should be allowed to act reasonably to regain their fun.
Oh and BTW I was affected by the Grasp of the Grave fix, and I'm happy to keep the spell - less damage per round than Stinking Cloud but it is completely party friendly so I'm happy.
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