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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 4:42PM
#121
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
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Im not saying I want people to be penalized. Im just saying that no one should get special treatment because of the errata. I used my level 4 retrain on to train out of eladrin soldier because i cant use half of my urgosh and spent money on a transfer enchant to a different weapon. Getting free retrains and free item trades arent fair as everyone can retrain the normal way when they have a legal feat that they no longer want. And everyone can spend the gold to transfer enchant from one weapon to another.
Just because your level 4 with 3 feats was able to fix this problem with one retrain doesn't mean that a level 15 with 9 feats 5 of them dedicated to using the urgosh in fun and useful ways is going to be able to, at least not in one level, it may take them 3-4 levels to get all the retrains out of the way, and fixing your character from eratta is not what the retrains were made for.
I really can't see how people don't see how it's unfair to people to do this to them. Maybe I'm just too nice (except in my earlier post, where I was rude, on purpose actually *feign mock suprise*, to the same level I felt they were being rude to the people they were talking to) but I don't think people should be punished for playing by the rules when those rules get changed.
Blah blah blah
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 4:51PM
#122
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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Im not saying I want people to be penalized. Im just saying that no one should get special treatment because of the errata. I used my level 4 retrain on to train out of eladrin soldier because i cant use half of my urgosh and spent money on a transfer enchant to a different weapon. Getting free retrains and free item trades arent fair as everyone can retrain the normal way when they have a legal feat that they no longer want. And everyone can spend the gold to transfer enchant from one weapon to another.
Just because your level 4 with 3 feats was able to fix this problem with one retrain doesn't mean that a level 15 with 9 feats 5 of them dedicated to using the urgosh in fun and useful ways is going to be able to, at least not in one level, it may take them 3-4 levels to get all the retrains out of the way, and fixing your character from eratta is not what the retrains were made for.
I really can't see how people don't see how it's unfair to people to do this to them. Maybe I'm just too nice (except in my earlier post, where I was rude, on purpose actually *feign mock suprise*, to the same level I felt they were being rude to the people they were talking to) but I don't think people should be punished for playing by the rules when those rules get changed.
But no one is being punished. Errata is just WOTC admitting they made a mistake and they are correcting it. I honestly think that people should stop victimizing themselves when it comes to errata. Its not like WOTC looked over all your character sheets and decided to change every rules item on them just to screw you. I never said it would be a pleasant experience to slowly retrain in/out of 4-5 feats. Im just saying that everyone, effected by errata or not, should be treated the same, unless there are legality issues.(i.e. reapers touch for non shadarkai)
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 4:53PM
#123
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
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I never said it would be a pleasant experience to slowly retrain in/out of 4-5 feats. Im just saying that everyone, effected by errata or not, should be treated the same, unless there are legality issues.(i.e. reapers touch for non shadarkai)
This is a game, it should not be painful for 4-5 levels just to adjust to eratta, that is punishment.
Blah blah blah
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 4:53PM
#124
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2003
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Items, powers, and feats are one thing; class features and PP powers are another and unretrainable under current rules.
And regarding an often used argument that a player should have known something was overpowered and not taken it or risk a nerf, how many things mentioned in this thread appeared in the update? Three? Maybe four or five? Did anyone predict on this thread that Magic Weapon would be changed? Life Transference? That Battlerager Vigor would be changed again? Kind of blows up the argument that players should know what things are at risk for errata, I'd say.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 5:20PM
#125
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2009
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Items, powers, and feats are one thing; class features and PP powers are another and unretrainable under current rules.
And regarding an often used argument that a player should have known something was overpowered and not taken it or risk a nerf, how many things mentioned in this thread appeared in the update? Three? Maybe four or five? Did anyone predict on this thread that Magic Weapon would be changed? Life Transference? That Battlerager Vigor would be changed again? Kind of blows up the argument that players should know what things are at risk for errata, I'd say.
It's getting to the point of ridiculous with my character.
Battlerager - multiple errata
Giant Riding Lizard - at will changed to encounter (instead of using ~10/encounter, it's 1/encounter)
Impenetrable Barding - errata
Dwarven Stoneblood - errata, now useless if you don't use invigorating powers
Bloodclaw - errata
Berserker's Fury + Targeted Assault to get "You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls against any creature marked by you" errated to "You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls against any creature any creature that has you marked." How in the fark would anyone declare that 2 feats to get a situational +2 bonus to attack rolls is overpowered compared to 2 feats to get a different situational +2 bonus to attack rolls (which now does the character no good)?
Not playing the victim, but when I take an CFIPP (class feature, feat, item, power, paragon path), I am entitled to either have the CFIPP work as it was described or I am entitle to nulify that choice and choose over. To not insist and demand this right is to allow onself to be made a victim.
"At Gencon 2010, WOTC will announce a new edition of Dungeons & Dragons." - crm(1/2010)
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 5:42PM
#126
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2008
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But no one is being punished. Errata is just WOTC admitting they made a mistake and they are correcting it.
Yep, nothing wrong with this. To be clear, no one is upset at the errata itself. People are upset that LFR isn't being responsive and allowing you to react to WotC's changes. It makes sense that if WotC changes the rules, then people should be given a fair chance to change and adapt as well.
Note that I'm saying "fair". A full retrain or re-equip isn't being suggested.
And no, using your normal "1 retrain a level" was not created in order to allow people to adapt their PCs to WotC's rules changes. It's there for normal PC retraining. If you're asking people to sell their equipment at 1/5 the cost (!) or use their "1 retrain/level" for adapting to WotC's errata then you *are* penalizing them.
I'm not sure why more people don't get this as well. Saying "use your 1 retrain / level" or "sell at 1/5 cost" is not truly understanding the reasoning for either game mechanic.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 7:52PM
#127
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Date Joined:
Apr 11, 2008
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Items, powers, and feats are one thing; class features and PP powers are another and unretrainable under current rules.
And regarding an often used argument that a player should have known something was overpowered and not taken it or risk a nerf, how many things mentioned in this thread appeared in the update? Three? Maybe four or five? Did anyone predict on this thread that Magic Weapon would be changed? Life Transference? That Battlerager Vigor would be changed again? Kind of blows up the argument that players should know what things are at risk for errata, I'd say.
It's getting to the point of ridiculous with my character.
Battlerager - multiple errata
Giant Riding Lizard - at will changed to encounter (instead of using ~10/encounter, it's 1/encounter)
Impenetrable Barding - errata
Dwarven Stoneblood - errata, now useless if you don't use invigorating powers
Bloodclaw - errata
Berserker's Fury + Targeted Assault to get "You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls against any creature marked by you" errated to "You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls against any creature any creature that has you marked." How in the fark would anyone declare that 2 feats to get a situational +2 bonus to attack rolls is overpowered compared to 2 feats to get a different situational +2 bonus to attack rolls (which now does the character no good)?
Not playing the victim, but when I take an CFIPP (class feature, feat, item, power, paragon path), I am entitled to either have the CFIPP work as it was described or I am entitle to nulify that choice and choose over. To not insist and demand this right is to allow onself to be made a victim.
I think you're going too far with your claims. By your logic, any time that errata reduces the strength of a game mechanic, you are victimized. Bloodclaw still fulfills the same function that it did. Impenetrable Warding still fills the same function that it did (and in LFR, if your mount dies, you get a new one at the start of the next module - it's actually cheaper than what happens to a ranger whose beast companion dies). Even the giant riding lizard still fills the same function. Yes, it's less powerful, but you bought that mount knowing that it would become useless once the lack of attack bonus scaling caught up with it. It is not something that the character could be based around on its own. Your other items - the battlerager and Dwarven Stoneblood - were changed significantly through errata. Targeted Assault was trickier, since the table didn't line up with the description (and the description made little sense for a barbarian, who doesn't mark things), but I'd even let that be retrained.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 8:46PM
#128
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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Berserker's Fury + Targeted Assault to get "You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls against any creature marked by you" errated to "You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls against any creature any creature that has you marked." How in the fark would anyone declare that 2 feats to get a situational +2 bonus to attack rolls is overpowered compared to 2 feats to get a different situational +2 bonus to attack rolls (which now does the character no good)?
Because there are characters for whom that +2 bonus to attack is almost certainly not situational(Paladins and Wardens as an example) - this was identified immediately as a problem and mdonais(R&D guy) came on CharOp and specifically stated that it was not intended and that it would be fixed.
NETH4-1 Containing Shadow (co-author) Handbooks
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 9:04PM
#129
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2002
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Yes we know you hate people and want to tell them to suck it up, really it should just be your signature. If not for the forum rules i'd have more to add to that. In the end, your attitude towards changes that alter peoples characters SUCKS and you really should seek some other outlet for your sadistic tendencies.
snip the rest
[VCL HAT ON]
Really Ibixat? C'mon... do I need to keep you on VCL speed dial? 
Let's keep it civil.
[VCL HAT OFF]
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 9:38PM
#130
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2008
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Just because [a] level 4 with 3 feats was able to fix this problem with one retrain doesn't mean that a level 15 with 9 feats 5 of them dedicated to using the urgosh in fun and useful ways is going to be able to, at least not in one level, it may take them 3-4 levels to get all the retrains out of the way, and fixing your character from eratta is not what the retrains were made for.
This is the crux of the issue right here. There are some changes that drastically change the way a character plays, and dramatically reduce the fun of playing with that character. Bloodclaw is not in this category. This is not just non-retrainable character choices, it's a little more insidious than that.
My example is my dwarf ranger. I took an magic Urgrosh at the end of WEEK1-3 (my first LFR games ever) first level because I thought it was cool. When Martial Power came out, I realized that my two-weapon ranger build wasn't giving me anything, and figured I'd retrain to beastmaster.
With the urgrosh changes, I'm in a pickle. The primary conceit for my character no longer holds up. I can't retrain back to TWF and probably wouldn't anyway—I've grown too attached to Tiny. What bums me out more than losing cash and damage (and don't doubt it—I'm losing a lot), is that I'm losing retraining slots. I *must* spend a few levels retraining powers I never would have taken, which means I can't test drive powers. Every choice I make I'm stuck with. As a relatively new player, I still don't see bad power choices until I get a chance to play with them at the table, now I risk being stuck with them for several levels.
I guess that was a long way of saying that, at the least, the RPGA should just increase the amount of retraining characters can do. Allow retrains between adventures or two per level. Doing so increases the fun of the game because it lets you experiment, and learn by failure instead of forcing players down a path they're unhappy with.
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