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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 3:01PM
#111
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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I could see allowing people to refund a found item slot but no item trading please.
I picked an item that allowed my cleric to have a reactive heal, that item has been changed to a completely different use, one which I would have never spent a found item slot on. My desire to have that rectified is normal
And reading the quote that you quoted, he said just that...
NETH4-1 Containing Shadow (co-author) Handbooks
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 3:05PM
#112
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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I stand firmly in the 'Suck it up' camp.
I could see allowing people to refund a found item slot but no item trading please.
Yes we know you hate people and want to tell them to suck it up, really it should just be your signature. If not for the forum rules i'd have more to add to that. In the end, your attitude towards changes that alter peoples characters SUCKS and you really should seek some other outlet for your sadistic tendencies.
I picked an item that allowed my cleric to have a reactive heal, that item has been changed to a completely different use, one which I would have never spent a found item slot on. My desire to have that rectified is normal and really none of your concern, so telling me to suck it up when I'm looking for wotc to issue a ruling on how to proceed (precedent set with veterans armor already) is basically you being rude in a thread for no reason.
Now if you were to say post alternatives or even possibly offer an intelligently written post on the subject that would be different, your choice of phrasing though is what makes your post useless and vindictive. It makes me wonder what type of person would post such things, but the forum rules again prevent open speculation on that subject.
Wow. that post was so rude. I mean I understand you may not like his stance on the subject, but he never said he hated people or anything close to that. And calling him sadistic is too much. From what I know of him, he just wants people to take responsibility for the choices they make, for better or for worse. I would say that you are the one being rude for little reason and this last post was uncalled for. I thought you two were going to agree to disagree. Guess not.
I firmly agree though that people should stick to the choices that they make even if things change. I do not believe in coddling people when they make a choice that turns out to be suboptimal. "Suck it up" may sound a bit harsh, but its whats fair for everyone. BTW, I also got effected by the nerfs in November, so I used the tools at my disposal(retraining, transfer enchant) and dealt with it. I didnt complain and act like a victim which is what im reading on these boards, inculding your posts.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 3:56PM
#113
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2004
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I really don't get the "take responsibilty for the consequences of your choices" arguement on this topic. Nobody chose for their items/feats/powers to get changed. Nobody chose those options as they are now. Our choices were invalidated. That's why people were upset.
If I make a character with feat x, then I find out it didn't work as well as I thought it would, fine. I'll retrain it. That's accepting the consequences of my choice. I made a bad choice.
Erratas have nothing to do with player choice. They are designer choices.
Live with the consecquences of what someone else has decided your character should be and do. That's real fun.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 4:03PM
#114
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2008
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I firmly agree though that people should stick to the choices that they make even if things change. I do not believe in coddling people when they make a choice that turns out to be suboptimal.
I'll be honest, I really don't get this mind set. It doesn't make any sense except perhaps in the odd world of RPGA, and only because people want to "penalize" others.
If you bought an item because it does "X", and then you discover it does "Y" instead.... you'd return it immediately! It's not your fault that suddenly the item does "Y"... why should you be penalized and continue to be saddled with it?
More specifically, the new Healer's Sash item is a completely different item. People likely chose it for its reactive heal property. That's gone, and it's now a daily magic item use that costs a minor. Very different uses and intents.
It's like if your Frost weapon went from having the "cold" keyword to having the "fire" keyword. Sure, it still adds a keyword (or heal, in the Sash's case), but it's a very different item. If you wanted "cold", I hope you can understand if people are a little upset that it turns out it's "fire". It's the same situation here.
The only reason I can think of that people believe in "suck it up" is because they believe it's a way to"penalize" people that choose powerful items/feats/choices. They think the item/feat/etc is abusive, and was obviously so, and therefore these people should be penalized. That's twisted logic. You shouldn't be penalized for playing the game at face value. Even some LFR Global Admins have stated as much, in their opinion.
So I hope you can understand why people get a little upset when you have these constant negative people saying (over and over and over again) "suck it up". That gets tiresome really quick.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 4:06PM
#115
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[(precedent set with veterans armor already)
I think the precedent was set with Guileful Switch and Rain of Blows errata. I actually invested in 13 int for all my characters to be able to get guileful switch/grasp of the grave through power swaps. So now I have a bunch of characters with a useless 13 int. I would love to be able to rebuild and put my int where it rightly belongs at 8.
Veterans armor was a core special reward, so I believe the veterans armor decision may apply to core special rewards in the future.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 4:08PM
#116
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2008
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Here's a quote from one of our LFR Global Admins: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758..."I'm a bit bemused by the idea that people who bought or chose magic items that have now been updated have been cheating and therefore somehow deserve to be punished. Last time I checked, the definition of cheating didn't include "playing a game according to its rules." It isn't the players' fault that some of these items were overpowered. A lot of them showed up in adventures as treasure bundle options; in some sense, you could say that we were encouraging people to take them, since the character wealth value of a found item above your current character level is higher than the character wealth value of pretty much any other option available in the campaign." I'll second that... actually, I'm more than bit "bemused" 
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 4:09PM
#117
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2009
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I firmly agree though that people should stick to the choices that they make even if things change. I do not believe in coddling people when they make a choice that turns out to be suboptimal.
I'll be honest, I really don't get this mind set. It doesn't make any sense except perhaps in the odd world of RPGA, and only because people want to "penalize" others.
If you bought an item because it does "X", and then you discover it does "Y" instead.... you'd return it immediately! It's not your fault that suddenly the item does "Y"... why should you be penalized and continue to be saddled with it?
More specifically, the new Healer's Sash item is a completely different item. People likely chose it for its reactive heal property. That's gone, and it's now a daily magic item use that costs a minor. Very different uses and intents.
It's like if your Frost weapon went from having the "cold" keyword to having the "fire" keyword. Sure, it still adds a keyword (or heal, in the Sash's case), but it's a very different item. If you wanted "cold", I hope you can understand if people are a little upset that it turns out it's "fire". It's the same situation here.
The only reason I can think of that people believe in "suck it up" is because they believe it's a way to"penalize" people that choose powerful items/feats/choices. They think the item/feat/etc is abusive, and was obviously so, and therefore these people should be penalized. That's twisted logic. You shouldn't be penalized for playing the game at face value. Even some LFR Global Admins have stated as much, in their opinion.
So I hope you can understand why people get a little upset when you have these constant negative people saying (over and over and over again) "suck it up". That gets tiresome really quick.
As the originator of the "suck it up" approach, I would point out that when I proposed it, I did so for entirely different reasons than "Don't whine when your nice things get taken away, it's your own durn fault fer takin' nice things" argument that I've seen so much of on the boards.
I was attempting to approach it as my worst-nerfed character might when finding out that his gear simply didn't work the way it did on the day he bought it. But, as I have pointed out on another thread, my increasing frustration with trying to put together anything approaching a career path for this character, given the continuously moving target of the errata, have led me to adopt and promote a different path remedy.
There's a saying about puritans who cannot sleep at night sitting up angry at the thought that someone, somewhere might be having a good time. Many of the suck-it-uppers remind me of this adage, in that they are seeming to find joy at the expense of others.
"At Gencon 2010, WOTC will announce a new edition of Dungeons & Dragons." - crm(1/2010)
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 4:12PM
#118
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2008
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Honestly, who cares if you remove the item from your inventory and clear that item slot? Seriously, who would care? You are well within your rights to not want that item, and there is already a "by the rules" way to get rid of items you don't want. You want to be rid of it - you can sell it for 20% of the cost (equal to a level 6 item?) or just make it disappear. The fact that there are multiple threads of people wanting someone official to come in and say "No, it's cool, it is totally official to get full value for that item" is just a little tiring. It tends to be the same people being incredibly rude saying how they got screwed by something that was really strong now being normal strength, and it gets really old.
I'm sure some people will click their tongues at you if they find out that you removed a found item from your character log, but Chris Tulach isn't going to call the FBI on you, and you will almost certainly not be banned from LFR for doing it, given the errata. Just make your decision and move on.
What makes me sad - no more compiled magazines: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27580349/Dungeon_and_Dragon_Magazine_PDFs&post_num=24#495423645
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 4:19PM
#119
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There's a saying about puritans who cannot sleep at night sitting up angry at the thought that someone, somewhere might be having a good time. Many of the suck-it-uppers remind me of this adage, in that they are seeming to find joy at the expense of others.
I disagree. Two of these people saying suck it up DM more than probably anyone on this forum. Possibly play more as well. I think they are saying it out of experience and seeing where the RPGA game is going. I can say personally that your adage 100% does not apply.
I agree for a different reason-I want campaign staff to have as little involvement as possible. Provide adventures, con support, touch as little as possible along the way.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 15, 2009 - 4:32PM
#120
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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I firmly agree though that people should stick to the choices that they make even if things change. I do not believe in coddling people when they make a choice that turns out to be suboptimal.
I'll be honest, I really don't get this mind set. It doesn't make any sense except perhaps in the odd world of RPGA, and only because people want to "penalize" others.
If you bought an item because it does "X", and then you discover it does "Y" instead.... you'd return it immediately! It's not your fault that suddenly the item does "Y"... why should you be penalized and continue to be saddled with it?
More specifically, the new Healer's Sash item is a completely different item. People likely chose it for its reactive heal property. That's gone, and it's now a daily magic item use that costs a minor. Very different uses and intents.
It's like if your Frost weapon went from having the "cold" keyword to having the "fire" keyword. Sure, it still adds a keyword (or heal, in the Sash's case), but it's a very different item. If you wanted "cold", I hope you can understand if people are a little upset that it turns out it's "fire". It's the same situation here.
The only reason I can think of that people believe in "suck it up" is because they believe it's a way to"penalize" people that choose powerful items/feats/choices. They think the item/feat/etc is abusive, and was obviously so, and therefore these people should be penalized. That's twisted logic. You shouldn't be penalized for playing the game at face value. Even some LFR Global Admins have stated as much, in their opinion.
So I hope you can understand why people get a little upset when you have these constant negative people saying (over and over and over again) "suck it up". That gets tiresome really quick.
Im not saying I want people to be penalized. Im just saying that no one should get special treatment because of the errata. I used my level 4 retrain on to train out of eladrin soldier because i cant use half of my urgosh and spent money on a transfer enchant to a different weapon. Getting free retrains and free item trades arent fair as everyone can retrain the normal way when they have a legal feat that they no longer want. And everyone can spend the gold to transfer enchant from one weapon to another. I am not the bad guy. No one really is. You should play the game at face value, and when the errata hits,(and it will again) retrain/sell what you need to have a character you like. I just dont like the idea of free retrains/item trades every single time an errata hits. I mean people who dont have the items/feats in question dont get them when they have a feat/item they dont like anymore. Why should anyone else? As far as the new healers sash goes, I will keep mine since its still a free heal for an ally, but I can see that an item refund would be reasonable. But I would be perfectly fine if the admins didnt give a refund either. I can understand that people get a little upset when errata hits, thats fine. i just dont understand the feeling of entitlement that I get from reading these boards.
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