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3 years ago ::
Nov 24, 2009 - 4:06AM
#41
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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This is a very relevant point. The rewards cards are extremely valuable - and at higher level you actually have so many that it gets a little ridiculous.
Absolutely. Now that we're in paragon, everyone can use five of them (or six with some kind of convention benefit, apparently) which is more than people actually need. That is, people end the session with three or four of them left untouched. This means that (a) they really aren't all that valuable, actually, and (b) it will become even more ridiculous by epic.
Overall, players here have started not using reward cards for the bragging rights (and because RPGA adventures are pretty easy anyway, even without cards), and some DMs have started giving out extra XP to a party that doesn't use reward cards. The only cards that I've seen used recently are Snap (to make the 'dazed' condition completely irrelevant) and That'll Do (to account for overly random skill checks that are sometimes required).
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3 years ago ::
Nov 24, 2009 - 5:36AM
#42
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Date Joined:
Nov 10, 2003
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and some DMs have started giving out extra XP to a party that doesn't use reward cards. The only cards that I've seen used recently are Snap (to make the 'dazed' condition completely irrelevant) and That'll Do (to account for overly random skill checks that are sometimes required).
You can't alter the rewards in an LFR mod in any way, even with DME. That's really not on, 'rewarding' players for not using the mechanics available to them.
I do agree that with cards, things are getting a bit ridiculous by paragon. Especially since skill challenge DCs don't really scale as fast as the PCs' skills, especially if they pick up feats and items that enhance them. A balanced party is (in my experience) often in the situation where just about every skill is covered by at least one PC who succeeds on a 3 or better, and the few skills not covered (dex based ones are most commonly missing round my way) are just not used. This means that it's easy to go through a mod and have all those 'That'll do' cards sitting unused.
My default stack for paragon is two That'll do, one Snap, and the rest made up (depending on the character) with minion slayer, lucky shot, instinctive reaction, at-will rerolls or more snaps. I've been through a couple of mods where I haven't used any of my five cards.
I only recall twice failing a skill challenge in about 100 mods I've played. I've had a couple of groups fail on my while I've DM'd as well, but the fail rate is nothing like 10%. That said, I think I've only been defeated in combat once (and my PC did escape with his life, but not many XP) in all that time, so maybe I'm just lucky.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 24, 2009 - 6:00AM
#43
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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You can't alter the rewards in an LFR mod in any way, even with DME. That's really not on, 'rewarding' players for not using the mechanics available to them.
Sure you can, because of Rule Zero. One of the DMs doing so is an RPGA official, and I see no reason to contradict him on this. After all, as long as everyone is having fun, is WOTC going to send in the Law Ninjas to take away his DM'ing badge? I thought not.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 24, 2009 - 6:50AM
#44
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Date Joined:
Nov 10, 2003
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You can't alter the rewards in an LFR mod in any way, even with DME. That's really not on, 'rewarding' players for not using the mechanics available to them.
Sure you can, because of Rule Zero. One of the DMs doing so is an RPGA official, and I see no reason to contradict him on this. After all, as long as everyone is having fun, is WOTC going to send in the Law Ninjas to take away his DM'ing badge? I thought not.
Not getting caught doesn't make cheating OK. Just ask the entire Irish (and most of the French) nation...
From the current CCG, page 11:
"However, the DM cannot change the overall plot of the adventure or its location, and cannot change the rewards earned by the characters (treasure, XP, and story awards). The adventure should be essentially the same no matter who runs it."
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3 years ago ::
Nov 24, 2009 - 6:53AM
#45
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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Sure you can, because of Rule Zero. One of the DMs doing so is an RPGA official, and I see no reason to contradict him on this. After all, as long as everyone is having fun, is WOTC going to send in the Law Ninjas to take away his DM'ing badge? I thought not.
The unlikelihood of ever being punished has no bearing on whether it's against the rules. And let us be clear, regardless of what this person's title is, what you are doing is against the rules.
Keep in mind the primary consequence of log sheets being unsigned. If anyone were to ever question you for a pattern of taking rewards over what is given in an adventure, it is you and you alone that will be held accountable for that action, as there is no way to determine whether your claims of DM sanction are true.
As a practical matter, you're right. As long as you play just within the community where this person holds sway, it's unlikely to have any negative consequences. Outside that area, however, were anyone to learn of this behavior, taking more XP than a module gives out is one of the infractions that will cause people to look askance, and a pattern of regularly doing so is the type of behavior that gives a reputation for deliberate cheating.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 24, 2009 - 7:36AM
#46
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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That strikes me as an overreaction. We have just gone from "some DMs have started out giving extra XP" to accusing players of "long-term deliberate cheating". That Does Not Follow.
Remember the MST3K mantra. People are playing a game, and are supposed to have fun. There is a lot of things going on worldwide that aren't strictly by the rules, from starting characters at level 2, to taking extra retraining because a power got "updated", to seating seven players at one table, to disallowing the intimidate skill in combat, and to selling a nerfed bloodclaw at full value. And before you ask, no, I'm not talking about myself. People can't "win" D&D because there's nothing to win, and nobody to win it against. It's really not worth an outrage.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 24, 2009 - 7:54AM
#47
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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It does indeed get more complex. It's a negative binomial distribution. I had some help from a statistician friend when I worked up my spreadsheet a few months ago but with an 85% success rate on each skill check, the odds of six successes before 3 failures is 89%. 12 successes before 3 failures is 65%.
I did the math finally, and I got a 21% chance of failure if individual checks are at 85% chance of success. Maybe I did something wrong.
Still, a 1/5 chance of failure, IF you can then negate that failure with a few well place That'll Do cards, means you're rarely going to see failures. If folks aren't using cards, then can be using re-roll powers and backgrounds. So, I don't think it is impossible to never have failed a skill challenge.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 24, 2009 - 8:02AM
#48
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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That strikes me as an overreaction. We have just gone from "some DMs have started out giving extra XP" to accusing players of "long-term deliberate cheating". That Does Not Follow.
Players are just as responsible for playing by the rules as DMs. Any cheating that occurs in what was described, is actually being accomplished by both parties. So, I think it does follow. Do I think it is worth getting up in arms over? No. Personally, if I was organizing and saw a DM doing it, I'd tell them not to and warn them not to do it again. Over and done.
Remember the MST3K mantra. People are playing a game, and are supposed to have fun. There is a lot of things going on worldwide that aren't strictly by the rules, from starting characters at level 2, to taking extra retraining because a power got "updated", to seating seven players at one table, to disallowing the intimidate skill in combat, and to selling a nerfed bloodclaw at full value. And before you ask, no, I'm not talking about myself. People can't "win" D&D because there's nothing to win, and nobody to win it against. It's really not worth an outrage.
Sure, but even if there's nothing to "win", you can still get outraged over the principle of the thing. I'm not saying that throwing a fit is really the correct response, but personally I don't think ignoring it is quite right either.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 24, 2009 - 8:09AM
#49
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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Players are just as responsible for playing by the rules as DMs.
Yes, but I don't think most players know what the official line on DME is, nor what the printed XP values in the adventure are.
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3 years ago ::
Nov 24, 2009 - 9:01AM
#50
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Date Joined:
Nov 10, 2003
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Players are just as responsible for playing by the rules as DMs.
Yes, but I don't think most players know what the official line on DME is, nor what the printed XP values in the adventure are.
Well, the official line on DME is in the CCG, which all players in theory should have read. Ignorance of those rules is no defence.
And the players must be complicit in this, because presumably the DM tells them he's going to up the XP for their not using any cards, otherwise they would be using cards. Plus I expect any player who actually has an account here and has signed up to the reward scheme to be savvy enough to have read the CCG. Or to realise that the XP for every core/regional adventure in the same tier is exactly the same.
I'm not up in arms about it. Just a bit puzzled by your apparent endorsement of cheating. If I heard a DM doing this, I'd politely point out the part of the CCG and ask them not to do it. Likewise a player with a character who'd been complicit in this.
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