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4 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2009 - 3:33PM
#61
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2004
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My post wasn't really directed at you but I'll respond anyway.
No, I don't expect a newbie to recognize when he is abusing a broken mechanic. You however are no longer a newbie. You have a paragon level character.
At some point I'm sure you took a step back, examined the crunch of the game, and realized that your character was overpowered.
In the end I don't understand the need for tears. You retrain out of the feats that no longer work the way they used to and you transfer enchantment your armor to some cloth or worst-cast-scenario you sell the armor and buy new armor that can be applied to cloth. Besides hurting your character's flavor how has this errata impacted you?
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4 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2009 - 3:34PM
#62
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2007
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Regarding treasure bundle found magic items, my recommendation is to allow a pick of a replacement item of the same level or less. If you wish, limit to the same type of item (weapon, armor, ...) I strongly oppose vacating the bundle slot; that is way too generous.
Regarding purchased magic items, I suggest a simple depreciation that reflects the usage:
If the level of the item is same as level of PC, redeem for 100%
If the level of the item is one less than level of PC, redeem for 80%
If the level of the item is two less than level of PC, redeem for 60%
If the level of the item is three less than level of PC, redeem for 40%
If the level of the item is four or more levels lower than that of the PC, redeem for 20%.
(That could be worded in a more concise way.)
Changes that make a PC illegal need to have a free, immediate fix...simpliest change to make legal.
I am not a big supporter of allowing free changes for items, stuff that is still legal, just perceived as not as powerful, but if you do, keep it from being a free for all approach.
My 2 cents.
Keith
Keith Hoffman
LFR Writing Director for Waterdeep
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4 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2009 - 3:36PM
#63
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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A loss of 6AC isn't marginal at all! 
Coming from the player of a Level 10 Avenger who lost 4 AC ... you didn't lose 6 AC. Unless your PC is walking around without armor on for some reason, even though he probably has Leather and/or Hide Proficiency and can still use his armor!.
I, personally, built my Avenger character -knowing- they were going to fix Armor of Faith (or hoping anyways), so I'm fine with the change. About time, I say.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2009 - 3:48PM
#64
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2008
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My post wasn't really directed at you but I'll respond anyway.
No, I don't expect a newbie to recognize when he is abusing a broken mechanic. You however are no longer a newbie. You have a paragon level character.
At some point I'm sure you took a step back, examined the crunch of the game, and realized that your character was overpowered.
In the end I don't understand the need for tears. You retrain out of the feats that no longer work the way they used to and you transfer enchantment your armor to some cloth or worst-cast-scenario you sell the armor and buy new armor that can be applied to cloth. Besides hurting your character's flavor how has this errata impacted you?
I disagree, my Avenger had reasonable damage, but not as much as other strikers I group with (barbarians and Rangers) Excellent defenses but no marking mechanisms that would make the character a defender. This means the Avenger is very much a hybrid strikers less about damage, and more about other stuff. (in my case being a quasi defender)
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My idea was to make an armoured Avenger who could Mark and generally be a quasi defender, and it was pretty good fun, losing 6AC breaks this completely.
A free retrain/item swap would solve this problem.
Sure once I've retrained, swapped my armour etc, I'll only be 2 AC less, that is still pretty big though. But until I've retrained, my character is pretty much worthless in LFR. This take the fun out of playing with him.
Daniel.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2009 - 3:53PM
#65
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2008
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Coming from the player of a Level 10 Avenger who lost 4 AC ... you didn't lose 6 AC. Unless your PC is walking around without armor on for some reason, even though he probably has Leather and/or Hide Proficiency and can still use his armor!.
I, personally, built my Avenger character -knowing- they were going to fix Armor of Faith (or hoping anyways), so I'm fine with the change. About time, I say.
Turns out it's 5AC, my mistake. (Improved Armour of faith gives +2 once you hit paragon)
I'm glad you are happy with the change good for you! 
Wow wish I could see the future!
Daniel.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2009 - 3:56PM
#66
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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I said this before (with the reperation appartus and veteran's armor nerfs) and I'll say it again:
If you build your character around clearly broken feats/powers/options don't cry when those things get taken away. Did you really think your avenger/warlock/bloodclawing character was balanced?
Bloodclaw, reckless, hero of faith and a few others, I can buy a little "I told you so".
Avengers wearing leather armor? Really? A player was supposed to look at the long and storied legacy of avengers in fantasy literature and realize that wearing leather armor instead of cloth was a perversion of the design intent of the class?
I can understand the reason for the change, but it so comes out of left field that I'd find laughable the idea that avengers should have seen it coming.
And, no, I don't play an avenger. (Sadly, my primary character was completely unaffected by any of the updates, as that indicates I clearly was not as optimized as I thought I was.)
I think the right mindset to determine how the campaign should deal with this issue is this: "If you, as the DM in a home campaign, gave out a magic item or affirmatively told a player that he was fine taking a feat or power, and then later decided that you had screwed up and retroactively wanted to change the item, feat or power, what would you consider the fairest way to implement that change?"
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4 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2009 - 4:00PM
#67
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2008
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I think the right mindset to determine how the campaign should deal with this issue is this: "If you, as the DM in a home campaign, gave out a magic item or affirmatively told a player that he was fine taking a feat or power, and then later decided that you had screwed up and retroactively wanted to change the item, feat or power, what would you consider the fairest way to implement that change?"
It is a tricky one In a home game you'd just work with DM to fix your character but for LFR they have to come up with something that is fair for everyone without knowing each individual case.
Whatever they decide someone will be left unhappy.
Daniel.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2009 - 4:02PM
#68
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2008
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Avengers wearing leather armor? Really? A player was supposed to look at the long and storied legacy of avengers in fantasy literature and realize that wearing leather armor instead of cloth was a perversion of the design intent of the class?
I can understand the reason for the change, but it so comes out of left field that I'd find laughable the idea that avengers should have seen it coming.
You said it much better than me, thank you!
Daniel.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2009 - 4:24PM
#69
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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Avengers wearing leather armor? Really? A player was supposed to look at the long and storied legacy of avengers in fantasy literature and realize that wearing leather armor instead of cloth was a perversion of the design intent of the class?
I wasn't speaking of thematic reasons for seeing this change coming, but if you can see Bloodclaw as a problem, then the fact that a Striker had a better AC than a similar level Defender, while wearing much lighter armor and no shield, also had to be a problem that could be foreseen.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 18, 2009 - 4:35PM
#70
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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My post wasn't really directed at you but I'll respond anyway.
No, I don't expect a newbie to recognize when he is abusing a broken mechanic. You however are no longer a newbie. You have a paragon level character.
At some point I'm sure you took a step back, examined the crunch of the game, and realized that your character was overpowered.
In the end I don't understand the need for tears. You retrain out of the feats that no longer work the way they used to and you transfer enchantment your armor to some cloth or worst-cast-scenario you sell the armor and buy new armor that can be applied to cloth. Besides hurting your character's flavor how has this errata impacted you?
I disagree, my Avenger had reasonable damage, but not as much as other strikers I group with (barbarians and Rangers) Excellent defenses but no marking mechanisms that would make the character a defender. This means the Avenger is very much a hybrid strikers less about damage, and more about other stuff. (in my case being a quasi defender)
erdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;">
My idea was to make an armoured Avenger who could Mark and generally be a quasi defender, and it was pretty good fun, losing 6AC breaks this completely.
A free retrain/item swap would solve this problem.
Sure once I've retrained, swapped my armour etc, I'll only be 2 AC less, that is still pretty big though. But until I've retrained, my character is pretty much worthless in LFR. This take the fun out of playing with him.
Daniel.
How does this make your avenger worthless? You still have oath of emnity, censure, and amazing powers that do just as much damage as everyone else. Was your condition of fun making the defender feel bad because you have better defenses than him and dont need defendering? You still have good ac, better than other strikers save barbarians and archer rangers. I mean you can just not wear the leather and be down 1 feat until you level, hardly an enormous change. Avengers are still crazy good, they just break the game less now.
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