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Nov 17, 2009 -- 9:54AM, tirianmal wrote:

No, what makes them a bad choice is that they are consistently behind the standard character that you would create if you were working with the system rather than against it in the most noticeable areas of the character (damage, AC, NADs, hit points, surges, riders) and always will be regardless of how much the player retrains.

A. No B. No A. No B. ...

That is more or less what this argument boils down to. You believe that being behind the curve (by however many points in something) is bad. Others don't. I don't think there's any convincing to be done here.

I will add that those who think the halfling avenger or gnome cleric are appropriate pregens not only think that being behind the curve is fine for them. They are also willing to make that decision for any new player who happens to pick up the pregen and play him for a few games. The new player will most likely lack the system mastery needed to recognize why, for instance, the wizard is a mainstream character and the avenger is always going to be behind the curve and thus will not be making an informed decision on the matter. If you want to play characters that are behind the curve, that's fine--maybe you can make up for it other ways, maybe you enjoy the challenge. But if someone is coming to us to create their character--which is essentially what happens when they take a pregen--we are betraying their trust if we give them something that will always be subpar.

This is much more problematic for Weekend in the Realms than for a delve or the D&D Open. In a delve, the point is to win and identifying which pregen characters are more effective can be considered part of the challenge. In the D&D Open, everyone is working with the same characters, so being stuck with a subpar character (such as the unforgivably bad tiefling warlord from two years ago) may be frustrating but can equally be considered a part of the challenge. In either event, the damage is limited because the player will most likely not use that character again after the delve or open is finished. For Weekend in the Realms, on the other hand, a significant portion (perhaps most) of the players will not be using pregens and we are giving the characters rewards that can only be used if the player sticks with the character for future LFR games.

Nov 17, 2009 -- 1:00PM, ibixat wrote:

OK new rule, the only pregens allowed are arcane feychargers, half elf avengers with twin strike at will, and anything else charop comes up with that breaks the game, sure they suck at level 1 but we have to consider what may happen if someone wants to play those characters again and again.  Think of the children and all that nonsense.

OR, we just accept pregens for what they are, something quickly thrown together that may be fun to play or god forbid, roleplay for one session or two and then you make your own real character. 

Does it occur to you that there is a potential middle ground between having a gamebreaking character and having a gimped character? By pretending that those are the only two options, you do yourself and whoever picks up the pregens a disservice.

Neither the wizard nor the swordmage presented are broken monstrousities from the charop board (nor do they suck at level 1). However, they are both within the mainstream of character power for their role. Whether you want to "throw them together quickly" or put 5 minutes of thought into them, it is not difficult to create pregenerated characters that are consistently within that mainstream.

And to address the last insinuation, I like to think that I'm a good enough roleplayer that I can still role-play well, even if my character doesn't suck. Your milage may vary, of course, but I'm pretty confident that new players will share my ability to do that. Your role-playing is safe and no-one is coming to pry it out of your cold dead hands.