After playing Weekend in the Realms, I took a look at the pregenerated characters and doing so inspired some thoughts on the pregens.
First, I think there are two primary considerations with pregenerated characters. First, how will they be able to perform in the module at hand and second, how they will perform in future modules if the players decide to continue in the Living Forgotten Realms community.
As to the first question, I am not one of those people who think that every pre-gen should be hyperoptimized. That said, I do think that they should be constructed so that a player who sits down at a table with custom created characters should be just as good as they are likely to be. New players shouldn't have to think, "how do I get me Character Generator; I could make a better character than this!" In short, I would hope for pregenerated characters to be equivalent to a character who takes a standard charop stat array and the standard feats and powers for a well supported race/class combination. Powers should likewise not be selected on the basis of "if I didn't put this in a pregen, it would never see the light of play." (By contrast, I would consider characters who depend upon specific magic items or special combinations of dragon magazine style feats, diletante/versatile master abuse, and out of character equipment/power selections (like the charop forums' twin striking daggermaster critfisher avengers) to be hyperoptimized).
Continuing in this vein, characters that are simple and straightforward make better pregens than complicated ones. In machines, the more moving parts they have, the more things there are that can go wrong. For characters, the more complex they are, the more system mastery they require in order to play effectively. Since the players most likely to use pregens are those least likely to have mastered the system, simpler=better. For this reason, a rageblood barbarian or an archery focused ranger who can simply attack without worrying about conditional censures or combat advantage are better pregens than an avenger or a rogue. And likewise, an avenger with whirlwind charge (you use it, it works) is a better pregen than an avenger with avenging echoes (it works best with setup or as setup for oath/censure; if it's just used by itself, it is no better than a basic attack).
Likewise, characters should have powers that are going to be effective throughout the module. A wizard with a focus on cold magic, for example, would be a poor pregen for a module where all the monsters were cold-resistant. Doing that would be setting the player up for frustration. Likewise, but slightly less obviously, a charisma paladin would be an unfortunate pregen for a module that featured lots of flying enemies. Said paladin would not be able to keep a divine challenge on them and would not be able to attack them effectively (since his likely stat arrays and proficiencies preclude effective ranged basic attacks).
As to the second question, it is important to consider that the people most likely to play a pregen are new players. And if things go as we hope, those new players will want to continue playing LFR. Since they have experience and a magic item for their pregen, it is to be expected that any who do will want to continue to play that pregen. Consequently, it is not enough for a pregen to be adequate for the adventure at hand. The pregen also needs to be constructed as though it had a future. The player of the wizard shouldn't think "all the other wizards are using this fancy enlarge spell feat, but I don't qualify for it; why did you guys give me a sucky character?" (Fortunately, the wizard pregen is qualified to take that feat--score one in the win column for that pregen). In short, pregen characters should be constructed so that they will be able to take advantage of future feats and powers that are widely thought to be good for their class and should have a stat setup that enables them to take advantage of at least one of the more popular paragon paths--preferably one from the PHB.
As a further consideration along this line, it is important that pregenerated characters fit within the broad mechanical expectations of the designers for the class. This will preclude a number of quirky builds that are fun for experienced players. For example, a friend of mine runs an archer paladin that I am assured is quite effective. However, this would be a poor pregen since a player looking to level up their paladin would find that most of the available powers are not suited to the character's build or playstyle. Likewise, another friend runs a 10-strength warlord who is reasonably effective and will be more so as soon as he hits paragon and takes his bard paragon path that allows him to use charisma for all of his attacks. This would be a poor pregen because the build imposes a hidden consideration for power selection: the character looks to take as many powers as possible that do not require attack rolls or which have an effect that does not depend on an attack roll. A character who simply opened up the PHB and took powers that looked interesting or effective would find that the best power available is rarely the best power for his character. Any quirky character that introduces that level of additional power selection criteria is a poor choice for an introductory game day pregen.
Now, some thoughts on the specific pregenerated characters: Eladrin Wizard: A solid stat array that is effective in the given scenario and allows players to later expand the character with staple wizard feats like enlarge spell or dual implement spellcaster. The choice of empowered lightning is unfortunate (Acid arrow is even worse, but at least the wizard has another daily option and phantom chasm is a very solid choice) as it is one of the worst wizard powers printed (it is single target with no control aspects, and the wand of accuracy rider (which is uninspiring in general) encourages it to be used in the first round of combat which is usually the ideal time to use an area spell and furthermore complicates the optimal use of wand of accuracy by encouraging its use when it will not necessarily turn a miss into a hit).
IMO, this is the best of the pregenerated characters. The character is effective from the get-go and is set up with a stat array and power array that will serve adequately as a basis for future expansion. Only one retraining session is required to get rid of the abysmal encounter power.
Half-elf Swordmage: This is an unconventional race/class choice but the stat array chosen provides a character that is both effective in the immediate scenario and has room to grow. The selection of a shielding swordmage is also excellent since they are probably the most effective swordmage and are certainly the swordmage that requires the least system mastery. The choice (based on the attack bonuses) of weapon expertise rather than focused expertise, however is a poor one. It doesn't make the character any more interesting--it just makes the character straight up worse than a character that was constructed in a more focused way. I'm not a fan of the encounter or dilletante powers either but the selection of phantom bolt at least goes partway to addressing the swordmage's relative helplessness at range. (I would prefer scorching burst, winged horde, et al). All told, a player who took this character and decided to continue with it would have to retrain at least one item (the expertise feat) but the character is salvageable.
Dragonborn barbarian (thaneborn): Since this is widely thought to be the optimal race/class choice for a barbarian, I had to wonder what the catch was. Well, the first catch is that it's a thaneborn barbarian. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a thaneborn barbarian. However, my observation is that getting the most out of a thaneborn requires more tactical skill and system mastery than a rageblood barbarian requires in order to achieve similar results. In a pregenerated character that is most likely to be given to players who are new to the system I would much prefer to see simple characters chosen. When it comes to the powers, there is a pretty big mistake as the dragonborn's second at-will power is shown as an encounter power. That has a pretty big impact on the playability of the character especially as the first at-will power is the weaksauce version of howling strike--like howling strike but it comes with an AC penalty and can't be used on a charge. Any player who wanted to stick with the character would want to retrain that power pronto.
Dwarf fighter: Again, this is a conventional class/race choice and a solid stat array was chosen. The character looked like an ideal pregen until I came to the weapon selection. I understand that the picture shows a mace, but it's not as though there is a shortage of WotC art showing a dwarf with a hammer or an axe--and both choices are simply and straightforwardly better. While I don't think that pregens need to be optimized (and thus weapon expertise rather than dwarven weapon training is a perfectly acceptable choice), I don't think that pregens should be deliberately gimped either. The encounter power choice--shield bash--is a different issue. It is fine at level 1 but since it lacks the weapon keyword and the attack bonus is stuck at Str+2, it will very quickly run out of steam by level 4. That's two retrainings that any player who wants to stick with the dwarf will require--and more if he is suckered into taking a +1 frost mace as his treasure instead of doing the smart thing and upgrading to a warhammer, battle axe, warhammer, craghammer, or longsword immediately.
Now we come to the ones that fail.
Gnome cleric: It's hard to know where to begin here. We start out with an unconventional race/class choice, but unlike the swordmage's stat array that reflected an adaptation to the mechanical realities, the stat array for the gnome seems to be constructed to avoid taking advantage of any racial bonuses. 14 strength is not sufficient to make strength powers effective and even if it were, the cleric does not have any of them. 15 Charisma is not bad but does not really make effective use of the gnome's bonus. The gnome's armor and lack of dex interfere with his racial stealth abilities. You could probably make a playable gnomish devoted cleric but this is not it. Even switching the abilities around a little bit would improve the character. 14 Con rather than 14 strength would give it a bit of survivability. A focus on dex rather than Int would make its stealth abilities more useful. If you are inclined to defend this character, I suppose you'll spout some noise about "quirky characters" being interesting for some players and some players enjoying the challenge of making something playable, but there are two points that go against that. First, this is the only leader class pregen available which means that, in a party of pregens, someone is likely going to be stuck with this guy whether they want to play a quirky character or not. Second, what I assume to be the primary target audience for pregen characters--new or inexperienced players are the least likely to recognize that a character is quirky or that it will require extra careful play to be as effective as those constructed to be more effective.
The verdict: no amount of retraining will make this character as effective as a standard custom built character.
Halfling Avenger: This will probably be my most controversial analysis. The stats are well chosen. The powers are well chosen. And the character still fails. Why is that? Because halflings simply do not make good avengers and while the choices made would be fine for a more traditional avenger race (elf, deva, etc), they do not work for a halfling. I will expand a little bit. Avengers have two primary mechanical schitcks. First, at least ignoring the overpowered hide armor expertise rageblood barbarian, they have a reputation as the most survivable striker. Second, they derive their damage primarily by hitting their targets reliably with big weapons with powers that deal multiple large W dice. Even with both of those, however, they tend to struggle to compete with rogues, rangers, barbarians, and sorcerers in the damage department. Like warlocks, avengers are the low end of striker damage. Now, as a halfling, the avenger starts out behind in her strength, is handicapped in her weapon choice, and is destined to be even further behind the damage curve than a tradition avenger (if there is such a thing for a class that is new with 4th edition). The halfling's defenses are limited because her lack of a primary stat bonus left Wis 18/Dex 16 as the best stat array possible, which is fine but will always be behind the Wis 18/Dex (or int) 18 compatriots. Not only that, the aggressively focused stat array also leaves no points for Con for healing surges, hit points, or the boosting of non-AC defenses. A traditional avenger will have higher defenses, more hit points, more surges, and higher non-AC defenses. Moreover, the character's offense suffers. The limited secondary stat makes for a slightly less effective censure but that doesn't come up often in actual play so it is less of an issue. The bigger issue is the weapon limitation that comes with being a halfling. Since avengers start out low on the damage curve and rely upon the size of their W for damage, having two-handed weapons prohibited is a big disadvantage. In a best-case scenario, the character could retrain and gain bastard sword proficiency and take the scrappy feat... and with a one-feat tax would be almost as good as a standard avenger who took a fullblade until 2W and 3W powers and high crit property are considered. At that point, the halfling falls behind even with the feat tax. And since the avenger primarily does damage through W powers and crits, both of those issues are a big deal--doubly so because as a bottom of the totem pole damage dealer, the avenger doesn't have much room to give up damage and still play as effectively as other strikers of the same level.
Again, the verdict: though creative and a solid effort, no amount of retraining will really be able to salvage this halfling barbarian for a player who decided to stick with it.
All of this in no way means that I think those who volunteered their time to create these pregens are stupid, suck or are otherwise bad people. I have made pregens myself and, given my current experience, I wouldn't design them all in the same way if I re-did them. It takes a lot of effort and no-one will get them all right all the time. Still, it is important to think about them and consider what we can learn for the future from each effort.
Astute observations, although in general I believe much of this will depend on the player. Case in point, at my table we had a new player who used the Dragonborn Barbarian pregen. Issues of how complicated it may be for a new player to play a Thaneborn weren't a factor as he had a blast running around smacking things. I believe this was his first 4e game too. I think a lot of your criticisms, while sensible, make more sense and are of more concern to someone more experienced with the system. And while I agree that once said player becomes more experienced with the system they may chafe at some of the things in the pregen, retraining will help that out.
I agree with you on the Gnome. And you are right, the Halfling Avenger will be controversial. You are correct from a pure CharOp perspective, however the character is still viable and assembled well as is. Yes, Avengers fall behind the curve a bit in damage because they have no "striker damage" such as SA, Quarry, etc. However, what they do have is, if they are playing to their mechanic properly, is an increased chance to hit as well as to crit. And as the argument goes, hitting is often better, as is trotted out in all the arguments about +3 proficiency bonus vs. +2 but bigger weapon. Then again, I believe a striker is perfectly capable of doing their job well without a Fullblade.
There are probably some technical issues also. I can't say what limitations Mr. Merwin had when making the pregens as I don't know what limitations there were, but part of me thinks that he had to work with what is in official published books. This thought was sparked by your comment on Weapon Expertise vs. Focused Expertise. FE is technically in a playtest phase, so it is likely he couldn't use that for a pregen.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e?
1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
To be honest, I think very very few people will attempt to persevere with a pregen if WitR gets them hooked. Creating your own character is part of the fun of the game.
Halfling avengers are a bit weaker than average, but with that stat array, if you take a bastard sword and/or talenta weapon talent, you're not horrendously behind the fullblade. Sure they have the weakest damage if you charop them, but I don't think strikers were charop balanced, they were 'normal play' balanced. There are plenty of rangers out there who don't use a pair of bloodclaw waraxes with a +50 static mod on twinstrike, for example, and plenty of sorcerers who've never even heard of a staff of ruin.
I actually think it's not a bad idea to have one or two aspects of a character a bit sub-par for a pregen, as long as it's a 'slightly sub-par' choice and not a choice that gimps the character. That way if someone decides to keep the character, they can pick up the PHB, take a look and say 'hmmm. That power might be better for me.' Then the DM can tell them about retraining and presto - the pregen is now more 'their' character.
EDIT: Thaneborns require a bit of subtlety, but only compared to ragebloods. It's like throwing a brick through a window rather than an anvil. They're still pretty straightforward to use if you just charge, charge, charge and use the thaneborn triumph features as gravy. Besides, it takes a few levels and powers to get to the clever combos where you really set yourself up.
How about you allow the members to propose pregen characters for the next WitR? You could select, say, twelve characters, well-designed for first level play, suitable for advancement to higher level play, but not necessarily hyperoptimized.
To be honest, I think very very few people will attempt to persevere with a pregen if WitR gets them hooked. Creating your own character is part of the fun of the game.
Most LFR players have several characters. I would expect the character to stick around even if it doesn't turn out to be the player's primary character. Of course, if we deliberately gimp pregen characters, then it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Those players who do stick with LFR may well abandon their pregens because they have weaknesses that cannot be fixed except by creating a new character.
Halfling avengers are a bit weaker than average, but with that stat array, if you take a bastard sword and/or talenta weapon talent, you're not horrendously behind the fullblade. Sure they have the weakest damage if you charop them, but I don't think strikers were charop balanced, they were 'normal play' balanced. There are plenty of rangers out there who don't use a pair of bloodclaw waraxes with a +50 static mod on twinstrike, for example, and plenty of sorcerers who've never even heard of a staff of ruin.
I take your point but the problem is that the halfling avenger is weaker than average--even with the stat array chosen. Buying the 18 Wis/16 dex made up for a lot of it, but the character is still 1 point of init, 1 point of AC, 1 point of Ref, 1 point of fort, 1 healing surge, and 2 hp behind a more standard elf avenger--and always will be. Now, you are correct that with proper charop, you could make the character be only somewhat behind the standard fullblade or executioner's axe avenger, but there are still problems with that: you end up with a character that requires significant optimization in order to achieve parity with a non-standard build. That's fine as an exercise for experienced players--one of my favorite LG characters was my halfling paladin who I multiclassed heavily in order to make her hold her own in parties with more traditional characters. It let me exercise my optimization skills and was not overpowering like it would have been had I used a more optimal race. However, for new or casual players that is a recipe for frustration.
The other problem is that it's not just the rangers using two bloodclaw waraxes who are ahead of ordinary avengers--it's also the ordinary rangers using a pair of magic bastard swords with weapon focus and the rogues using an ordinary magic dagger with sly flourish. (Barbarians are a bit of a special case--they don't actually start out ahead of avengers in at-will DPR unless they have combat advantage or some other way of increasing their accuracy but their encounter powers (and later dailies) do a lot more damage--also they tend to deal lots of burst damage since a lucky crit will trigger an extra attack and a kill can also trigger a swift charge). Said halfling avenger is about 15% behind the bottom rung for at-will DPR and it will only get worse as the characters level up and start depending more upon their encounter powers. In short, by falling behind the ordinary avengers, the halfling avenger falls off the totem pole entirely.
I actually think it's not a bad idea to have one or two aspects of a character a bit sub-par for a pregen, as long as it's a 'slightly sub-par' choice and not a choice that gimps the character. That way if someone decides to keep the character, they can pick up the PHB, take a look and say 'hmmm. That power might be better for me.' Then the DM can tell them about retraining and presto - the pregen is now more 'their' character.
You see, I think that players will be making the characters their own as soon as they level up. And they may well decide to retrain for reasons of preference or playstyle. We shouldn't be putting in things that they will need to fix with retraining--if they recognize that it is a problem to begin with. Magic the Gathering reportedly operates on the philosophy that they will print bad cards in order to reward players who are skilled enough to tell the difference between effective cards and bad ones. That's fine for a competitive game. D&D is not a competitive game in the same way. We shouldn't be trying to sucker new players into bad choices with our pregens. New players are apt to make suboptimal choices on their own without any encouragement required.
In my opinion, the pregens that don't work are those which have ability bonuses that don't work for feats or other future character options. The half-elf swordmage can't take Greater Swordmage Warding without pumping Strength. Even starting at 11 would mean that he could take it at epic. The gnome cleric also has that same problem, and the other problems that you mentioned.
On the other hand, I don't have a problem with the halfling avenger. It's not as effective as another race, but does well for what it is. I've got enough room for sub-optimal combinations in my LFR.
I take your point but the problem is that the halfling avenger is weaker than average--even with the stat array chosen. Buying the 18 Wis/16 dex made up for a lot of it, but the character is still 1 point of init, 1 point of AC, 1 point of Ref, 1 point of fort, 1 healing surge, and 2 hp behind a more standard elf avenger--and always will be.
'Standard' elf avenger. Not everybody picks a +primary +secondary race all the time. In fact I've only done that once for the seven characters I have, and they're all plenty good enough (if I say so myself).
Said halfling avenger is about 15% behind the bottom rung for at-will DPR and it will only get worse as the characters level up and start depending more upon their encounter powers. In short, by falling behind the ordinary avengers, the halfling avenger falls off the totem pole entirely.
Genuinely interested, and not trying to put down your experience in any way: have you actually played in games with high level strikers and seen these differences in action? I must admit I haven't, so I can't make any claims from experience.
However 'at-will DPR' is a slightly artificial construct, as no-one in a real game is plugging away with at-wills vs an on level monster static bag of HPs (with constant combat advantage to boot). Most players use their encounter powers and dailies as a source of damage, and for my high level characters if I use an at-will it's because I've run out of encounter powers & useful dailies, or I have a specific thing that only my at-will can do (righteous brand comes out pretty often). From level 7 onwards, in my (albeit limited) experience, at-wills may as well be encounter powers considering how often most characters use them.
I suspect that the discrepancy between avenger damage and other strikers is not as large as charop dogma would have us believe in real games with builds that have to be played from levels 1-30, rather than being focussed on being as powerful as possible at 30, and without the ability to cherry-pick every magic item you want. Lower damage? Probably. Made up for by durability, class features and useful riders? Perhaps.I'd have to experience it. Now, you will tell me that avenger dailies are comparatively low damage, and you're right, but I do think that not missing with your encounter powers will still be quite significant, even if you don't have the spike damage of a ranger or barbarian (when that first attack with storm of blades misses...). 3W plus good static mods that won't miss, and double the chance to crit with a vicious bastard sword or what have you is not a bad deal at level 13, IMO, even if it is no optimised Storm of Blades.
On paper character power based on charop criteria and in-play are often two very different things. If they weren't, my feylock character sheet would be gathering dust somewhere, and every party would be a battlerager, taclord, ranger, sorcerer and orbizard.
Maybe I'll roll up an avenger some day and see if I'm right. Although given the number of characters that I have I doubt I'll be able to test the 'avengers suck at epic' claim myself until some time in 2013.
I also realize that in 4E and in LFR it is much, much easier if you have a striker at the table dishing out 30-40 damage a round. Rogues and ranged rangers are showing that to me a lot lately and while my own elf avenger (which one? I have two) doesn't dish out quite that much damage (more like half that on average), if he crits he's making up for that by usually killing something outright.
But, that's not why I play my two avengers. I play them for the fun tactical schticks that avengers have. One of them can more or less move and appear anywhere on the battlefield, via charges, shifts and teleports that there's really nowhere an enemy can hide and I tell you, damage or no, that's FUN.
So, maybe the halfling avenger isn't doing as much damage as he could if he was an elf (or shifter), or MC'd into something nice like Ranger or Barbarian or ... but someone might have a lot of fun playing him. And that's just fine.
I'm not arguing that no-one should ever play sub-optimal race/class combinations. What I am saying is that we shouldn't foist such characters on beginners as pregens. When an experienced player creates a halfling avenger or similarly suboptimal character, they may well be willing to play second (or third) fiddle to any other striker who shows up in terms of damage in return for whatever other benefits they derive from playing said striker. That's fine. Said players know what they are getting into and it was an informed decision. To give a new player who shows up to an event a character who is not only currently subpar, but will always be subpar no matter what they do to it is unfair to them. They are not choosing to play a subpar damage striker in return for other benefits or to give themselves a challenge. Odds are good that they liked the flavor of the avenger or someone already took the barbarian and they, like most players, wanted to play a character who kicks ass by dealing lots of damage. Giving such a player the halfling avenger is bait and switch.
As for at-will DPR being an innaccurate measure of avenger effectiveness, I think adding in the other considerations actually makes it more difficult for the avengers--and even more so for the halfling avenger. First, unless your DM allows teleporting enemies into the air, avengers do not have straightforwardly damaging riders on their powers except for fury's advance. This can be contrasted with (for instance) the barbarian's shatterbone strike which will result in more damage to the target from your barbarian or his allies. Now, for a retribution avenger, avenging echoes can be an incredibly damaging power but getting large amounts of damage out of it requires a good deal of finesse. On the whole, avenger encounter powers do not deal as much damage as powers like avalanche strike, bloodstrike, curtain of steel, claws of the griffon, off-hand strike, disruptive strike, torturous strike, etc. (Fury's advance, again is the notable exception as it is competitive for damage with most of the other strikers' minor action/immediate attack powers). For daily powers, avengers are again behind the other strikers (other than rogues whose dailies, for the most part, are not heavily damaging). If you cherry pick your powers carefully, you can manage 3W on all your daily powers from 1-9 but there's nothing that competes with the likes of jaws of the wolf, two wolf pounce, attacks on the run, rage strike, etc for damage. Moreover, all of these powers put the halfing at a further disadvantage relative to a standard avenger becuase the all obtain their damage through having lots of Ws--which will always be smaller for the halfling than for other avengers.
Now, to address the other contention--that the elf avenger should not be considered the standard point of comparison for a pursuit avenger because everyone will not go for a race that gives bonuses to both primary and secondary stats: 1. Everyone may not go for a race that gives bonuses to primary and secondary stats, but many people--perhaps even most--will. It is not a coincidence that the more races with ideal stat distributions are released the fewer human characters show up at RPGA events. 2. Even races with only the primary stat or with primary/tertiary stat bonuses have significant stat advantages over the halfling. For instance, a longtooth shifter pursuit avenger might go Str 13, Con 13, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8. That gives him +2 hp, +1 surge, +1 Fort over the halfling and qualifies him for hide armor proficiency and fighter multiclass (enabling him to take pitfighter as a paragon path if he so chooses). Even a human is likely to end up with 13 Con in addition to his 18 wis/16 dex and thus ends up with +2 Fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will, +2 hp, +1 surge, a bonus feat (rather than a feat tax), and an extra at-will. 3. The stats are not the only significant disadvantage. Perhaps even more important, the prohibition on 2h weapons and the lack of +1 dmg for versatile weapons hurts the halfling avenger. Critting with a +2 vicious bastard sword is nice, but it's not nearly as nice as critting with the +2 vicious fullblade/executioner's axe or maybe Mordenkrad that most other avengers will be wielding. If we decide to stick with military weapons, critting with a warhammer or longsword is not nearly as nice as critting with the falchion, greatsword, greataxe or maul that most other avengers will be wielding. Losing one weapon die size and high crit is a significant disadvantage. Losing that while being stuck with a less than optimal stat array is enough of a disadvantage that the character will not fill the expectations of the striker role character of her level.
Sure, someone might still have fun playing the halfling avenger. But given that they probably didn't deliberately set out to be suboptimal, odds are good that they will have less fun than if they would have if they were playing a character equal to everyone else rather than a character who is constantly struggling to overcome the handicaps she was created with. If you think playing a halfling avenger would be fun, play one yourself--don't foist it on an unsuspecting newbie.